A closer look at Revelation’s fifth trumpet in chapter 9

[No Other Name]

As an objective outsider who leans amil, I don't quite understand:

1) why the need to fence for amil only replies?
2) Why pharmakeia does not basically amount to sex, drugs, immorality and idolatry? Those who worship the beast or follow the harlot could do all of the above, more of one than the other, or only imbibe in one but not others and be counted as "sorcerors", yes?

I must be missing something, because the past few posts of debate seem like more in agreement than disagreement but one would not know it by the tone.

 

[JP Wallace]

Steve

I'm preaching on the 5th trumpet this Lord's Day evening so this discussion is timely. I have some areas of sympathy with your original post in that I do think a strict idealism may not be the best way of approaching the visions of Revelation. While admitting that the seven churches, seven seals and seven trumpets (and later bowls) all in one way or another, to some extent or other represent events and circumstances scattered and evident throughout history between the ascension of Christ and his return, I do wonder if the last visions of each series take us closer to end as it were, or represent an intensifying of wickedness and God's anger against it.

So for example the sixth seal seems to be very close to the end if not the end before the end at the seventh seal.

And so when I get to the 1st woe and fifth trumpet while again recognising that Satanic deception has been evident throughout the same period of history I wonder if the from the 5th we are looking at things closer to end. One line of possible evidence for this is that there is no limit placed on the scope of the demonic attack, (as in one third in the first 4 trumpets) but on the duration 5 months.

However to the OP:

In relation to your idea re. drugs etc. I have one question, well many, but only one here: While the locust army are not permitted to harm those sealed, i.e. the believer, they are also not permitted to afflict the grass, green plants or any tree. How does that impact your interpretation? What I mean is that does it not suggest that apart from divine limitation the smokey locusty attack could have impacted the believer, but also the natural world. If it is drugs - how would that work?

Now, it may be that this is merely an inidicator that is a spiritual attack, since the locusts are not doing the thing locusts usually do - devastate the natural world.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hi Brad,

1) because if it is a general eschatology thread it becomes a battleground of views, as there are some who post tons of stuff opposing what I am seeking to do, which is subjecting what I write to helpful and friendly peer review (the reason for the paedo / credo separations as well). The previous three threads show how general threads on this subject go. I just do not have the time to respond to continual contention.

2) Pharmakeia has a semantic range (what Jacob called "controlled meaning"), that in Revelation's 5 mentions of the word and its cognates refer specifically to drug use for occult purposes (getting "high" involves the occult even if that is not intended, as sorcery can include the simple intensification of physical and mental pleasures in its affects).

One can be sexually and otherwise immoral, or idolatrous, and not partake of those particular drugs. Hence, not sorcerous.

I'll try to watch my tone!

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Paul,

It's getting near my bedtime in this part of the world, but I'll try to briefly answer your questions.

You said, "I do wonder if the last visions of each series take us closer to end as it were, or represent an intensifying of wickedness and God's anger against it. . . So for example the sixth seal seems to be very close to the end if not the end before the end at the seventh seal."

I would ask, what are the commentaries you are using?

And I would answer, yes, both; the sixth seal, sixth trumpet, and sixth vial (bowl) all go right up almost to the very end, and an intensifying of wickedness and God's anger against it.

You said, "And so when I get to the 1st woe and fifth trumpet while again recognising that Satanic deception has been evident throughout the same period of history I wonder if the from the 5th we are looking at things closer to end. One line of possible evidence for this is that there is no limit placed on the scope of the demonic attack, (as in one third in the first 4 trumpets) but on the duration 5 months."

The five months indicate it is partial, not lethal; deception, not killing, which it will however lead to. You will see which commentators I mostly use from the paper mentioned below. These things are talked about by commentators in a paper I will attach.

When we get to the sixth trumpet, it is still one third of men are destroyed (this time humans, instead of land, water, air, fish). The fifth and sixth trumpets are related, the deception (the darkened sun and sky symbolic of men's mental/spiritual states) leading to the sixth's vast killing, whether through wars, plagues / pandemics etc.

The commentators I use (Amil modified idealist) agree the fifth and sixth trumpets are intimately connected, and both of those are intimately connected to the fifth and sixth vials. I will attach a paper (chapter from my book), "Correlating Visions in Revelation", showing various commentators' thoughts and general agreements on this.

You said, "However to the OP:

"In relation to your idea re. drugs etc. I have one question, well many, but only one here: While the locust army are not permitted to harm those sealed, i.e. the believer, they are also not permitted to afflict the grass, green plants or any tree. How does that impact your interpretation? What I mean is that does it not suggest that apart from divine limitation the smokey locusty attack could have impacted the believer, but also the natural world. If it is drugs - how would that work?

"Now, it may be that this is merely an indicator that is a spiritual attack, since the locusts are not doing the thing locusts usually do - devastate the natural world."

Judgment has grown more severe as idolatry, sin, and persecution of God's children has increased; whereas earlier it was the environment of men judged and plagued, now it is men directly — but only their souls, and not their bodies (as will come to pass in the 6th).

It is mental / spiritual darkness and anguish that the locusts (symbolic of demonic spirits) in the thick smoke (the darkness they bring) cause. The believer is impacted by the environment, and indirectly by the torment of those unregenerate, who have a hatred of God, and thus of His children also.

I hold that what has come forth from the opened abyss with its darkness and demonic hordes is precisely caused by the drugs used in sorcery that rend the barrier separating the two realms. In many parts of the world occultists use these drugs to contact spirits in their worship of them and seeking to use their powers.

I don't know if you've seen this here (you may find it of interest) :

UNCOVERING PROPHETIC DETAILS IN REVELATION: Restoring confidence in the applicability of John’s Apocalypse, the final prophecy

Feel free to write more!

Here's the paper:

 

[MW]

Our world has been invaded to such an extent it is not hyperbole to call this planet Demon-world. The abyss has arisen within the global zeitgeist, and soon one will appear when the gospel is forbidden and criminalized, who is the prince of that realm, in the person of the Man of Sin, who will seek to lord it over this realm.

Steve, The more you explain it the more weird it gets. I will leave you to your safe space. By the sounds of your eschatology you will be needing it.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Time will tell, Matthew!

 

[MW]

Time will tell, Matthew!

This sound fatalistic, Steve. Yet another mark that your scheme is not of the nature of the prophetic word, which is intended to spur God's people into action, and by such action to make a difference towards the fulfilment of the eschatological vision. "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death" (Rev. 12:11). Your overcoming dragon is the opposite of what Revelation teaches. I think you have lost the plot, dear brother. But I have said enough. I leave you to your eschatological projections of doom.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Paul @JP Wallace ,

Here's another brief paper (10 pages) more tightly focused on the fifth trumpet, New Insights in Amillennial Eschatology :

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Matthew, we will both stand before the Lord to give an account for our teaching, and for how we spoke of our brothers who differ.

 

[RamistThomist]

Matthew, we will both stand before the Lord to give an account for our teaching, and for how we spoke of our brothers who differ.

With all due respect, in the past you said Alan Kurschner's views, a man I consider to be godly and learned, were "an unmitigated theological disaster." How do you square that with your above comment?

Not Afraid of the Antichrist (Michael Brown and Craig Keener)

Michael L. Brown and Craig S. Keener, Not Afraid of the Antichrist: Why We Don’t Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Chosen, 2019). Introduction For those of us who come from a covenantal and amillennial background, what relevance does a book on the rapture have? For one, Reformed people...

puritanboard.com

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Jacob, I will admit that my saying was harsh. It was partly a reaction to your saying that “Regardless of one’s millennial position, Alan Kurschner is the most competent guy in eschatology today.” (I said "eschatology", not "theology".) For the public record, I retract my saying what I did. And I apologize for it. His eschatological view is not an unmitigated disaster. But, in my view, he is not the most competent eschatology teacher. In that thread, I endeavor to show why from Scripture.

My reaction was really against your saying, not his.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

"safe space" as in woke snowflake hideaway? No, rather,

"The name of the LORD is a strong tower:
the righteous runneth into it, and is safe" (Prov 18:10 KJV)

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

@JP Wallace , Paul, how did your sermon go? Was the material I sent any help?

 

[JP Wallace]

Because of some pastoral situations I was only able to skim read the articles but found them interesting. As I tend to do when preaching I majored on the primary focus of the passage and so preached on the great enemy that the world faces - a violent, effective demonic army, and the total and only safety to be found - faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

“ ‘bad faith readings’—interpreting a person’s words in the most uncharitable sense possible” ~Tim Keller

Matthew, I'm surprised you would resort to put-downs as you've been doing.