A Case For Amillennialism-?

[JM]

Mr. Albrecht, thanks for supplying a name for that quote I didn't know where it came from as I quoted it through a secondary source three or four years ago. I'm sure not sure how to answer those points you raised because I can't demonstrate if the points you raised where literal or not. I'm just going to throw my hands up and walk...

RJS, I'll have to check it out. I know Don Fortner has some work on these topics online so I'll start there.

j

 

[AV1611]

RJS, I'll have to check it out. I know Don Fortner has some work on these topics online so I'll start there.

A favourite of mine on Ezk is Banner of Truth Book Detail but it is more devotional than exegetical.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

I read it and found it very helpfull. I am a little biased though being an amillenialist myself.

Hey, I've overlooked my watch, lost my keys, and forgotten my wallet. But how can you Amil boys keep losing 1,000 years?

Are there only 144,000 saints, or did John fail to count some?

 

[JM]

The 1000 years = a period of time, it doesn't have to be a literal 1000 years just a literal period of time, it could be 999 or 1001.

 

[RamistThomist]

The 1000 years = a period of time, it doesn't have to be a literal 1000 years just a literal period of time, it could be 999 or 1001.

Agreed. The important thing about a millennium is that we (premils) use it to explain the fact that Scripture (Psalm 72, Isaiah 11, 55, 60-63, Ezekiel 36) does present an era where there is a change in creation which would seem to suggest, as most amils conceive it, something similar to the New Creation. The only problem is that evil is still extant, which is impossible in heaven. The amil--and some postmills--can say "Well, this is the church age and these golden passages simply refer to the church." Such a move, however, is completely arbitrary nor does it actually explain any of the data. The postmil can explain this better than the amil, but the postmil runs into problems elsewhere.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

The 1000 years = a period of time, it doesn't have to be a literal 1000 years just a literal period of time, it could be 999 or 1001.

Agreed. The important thing about a millennium is that we (premils) use it to explain the fact that Scripture (Psalm 72, Isaiah 11, 55, 60-63, Ezekiel 36) does present an era where there is a change in creation which would seem to suggest, as most amils conceive it, something similar to the New Creation. The only problem is that evil is still extant, which is impossible in heaven. The amil--and some postmills--can say "Well, this is the church age and these golden passages simply refer to the church." Such a move, however, is completely arbitrary nor does it actually explain any of the data. The postmil can explain this better than the amil, but the postmil runs into problems elsewhere.

The premills run into the problem of the ascended Christ living in the midst of an unrenewed earth where men are still in rebellion to him.

 

[JM]

The amils run into problems, as Jacob pointed out [Psalm 72, Isaiah 11, 55, 60-63, Ezekiel 36 and others], when it comes to the millennial kingdom...not to mention progressive parallelism and Hoekema's two age model [Amil and the Resurrection]

Peace,

jm

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

The amils run into problems, as Jacob pointed out [Psalm 72, Isaiah 11, 55, 60-63, Ezekiel 36 and others], when it comes to the millennial kingdom...not to mention progressive parallelism and Hoekema's two age model [Amil and the Resurrection]

Peace,

jm

I am going to start another thread about that progressive parallelism.

 

[JM]

Cool, thanks. As I posted above...this is a confusing topic for me. I'm premil and it's the first position on eschatology that I ever took, from reading PB many have taken this position until they default into Amil when they become Reformed, so I'll read and study the post you make.

Thanks Mr. Ritchie.

j
PS: Did the article link work? I tried it and it didn't.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Cool, thanks. As I posted above...this is a confusing topic for me. I'm premil and it's the first position on eschatology that I ever took, from reading PB many have taken this position until they default into Amil when they become Reformed, so I'll read and study the post you make.

Thanks Mr. Ritchie.

j
PS: Did the article link work? I tried it and it didn't.

The article link just brings you to Grace Christian Assembly, not to the article.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Oh yes, I should add that the thread is entitled: "Idealism is it Hegelian?"

 

[JM]

I'm lurking on it, thank you.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I'm lurking on it, thank you.

No problem.

 

[danmpem]

I'm premil and it's the first position on eschatology that I ever took, from reading PB many have taken this position until they default into Amil when they become Reformed,

That's the same thing with me, and that's why I voted "Undecided". I'm very premil, but being on PB has made me a little more optimistic toward amill.

 

[RamistThomist]

My problem with amillennialism is that it posits a flattened ontology.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

My problem with amillennialism is that it posits a flattened ontology.

 

[RamistThomist]

My problem with amillennialism is that it posits a flattened ontology.

I'll explain later.

 

[Sonoftheday]

I once tried listening to some of the sermons found on Grace Christian Assembly website. It seemed to me that he was teaching that the Mosiac Law has no hold over the Gentile whatsoever, but the Jew must still abide by all that it teaches plus place faith in Christ for salvation, is this what he teaches or did I missunderstand his sermon??

 

[JM]

Mr. Riddle, he's a dispey and makes it clear that he is. That said, I'd suggest the following messages:

# 025 - Intro to the Millennium
# 026 - Millennialism pt.2
# 027 - Hebrews 11 and Premillennial Thinking

# 047 - Amillennialism

# 088 - The History of Amillennialism
# 089 - The History of Premillennialism
# 090 - Augustine's Amillennialsm
# 091 - Revelation 20 and Amillennialism
# 092 - Answering the Two Age Model
# 093 - Answering Hoekema pt.1
# 094 - Answering Hoekema pt.2
# 095 - Answering Hoekema pt.3
# 096 - Answering Hoekema pt.4
# 097 - Answering Hoekema pt.5
# 098 - Answering Hoekema pt.6
# 099 - Answering Hoekema pt.7
# 100 - Answering Hoekema pt.8
# 101 - Answering Hoekema pt.9
# 102 - Answering Hoekema pt.10
# 103 - Hoekema and The Resurrection

link

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

My problem with amillennialism is that it posits a flattened ontology.

I'll explain later.

Please do.

 

[JM]

I'm premil and it's the first position on eschatology that I ever took, from reading PB many have taken this position until they default into Amil when they become Reformed,

That's the same thing with me, and that's why I voted "Undecided". I'm very premil, but being on PB has made me a little more optimistic toward amill.

MR. Pemberton, did you get a chance to download the messages I posted from GCA?

 

[Blue Dog]

lost years

I read it and found it very helpfull. I am a little biased though being an amillenialist myself.

Hey, I've overlooked my watch, lost my keys, and forgotten my wallet. But how can you Amil boys keep losing 1,000 years?

US amill boys havent lost a 1,000 years It's here and now. We reign with Jesus now, "Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you." (1Cor 4:8)"For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet."(1Cor 15:25) "we shall also reign with Him"(2Tim 2:12) "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
" (Rev5:10) cf.(context) Rev 20 (I know I am preaching to the choir here).

 

[RamistThomist]

I read it and found it very helpfull. I am a little biased though being an amillenialist myself.

Hey, I've overlooked my watch, lost my keys, and forgotten my wallet. But how can you Amil boys keep losing 1,000 years?

US amill boys havent lost a 1,000 years It's here and now. We reign with Jesus now, "Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you." (1Cor 4:8)

I see Paul's reference here as sarcasm, given the problem of an overly-realized eschatology in Corinth.

"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
" (Rev5:10) cf.(context) Rev 20 (I know I am preaching to the choir here).

Do you believe you are currently reigning on earth over the nations (which Revelation 2 says you will)?

 

[holyfool33]

I tried reading it but I found it so dry I gave up trying to read it and gave my copy to my pastor who is Amil.

 

[holyfool33]

Some dispensationalists insist that the OT sacrifices would be sovereignly reinstated in the thousand year reign of Christ. I consider this an aberration because it insists that the work of Christ was not complete. If Christ fulfills the sacrifices, then why go back. The writer to the Hebrew has alot to say about this. I believe between Chap 7-10.

The Sacrifices will be reinstituted but they wont have any expeateing. Power it will be much as Christians now look upon the Lord's supper.

 

[mshingler]

I'm just finishing up the book. I liked it, but was disappointed, at some points, that there was not more effort at detailed exegesis. Also, it seemed like much of the exegetical work offered was simply referenced from other works like Hoekema, Kline, etc.
I especially appreciated the chapter on the Olivet Discourse. This section of Scripture is one that I always felt like dispensationalists had to really "read into" to make it fit (I say that as one just "coming out of" dispensational thinking myself). At the same time, I've not been satisfied with the full preterist interpretation. I think Riddlebarger has a very solid and balanced understanding of these passages, taking a good bit of his material from D.A. Carson's commentary on Matt.
I can't say that this book has convinced me, but it has helped me understand some of the strengths of the amil. position and to face the inherent problems with premil.

 

[AV1611]

The Sacrifices will be reinstituted but they wont have any expeateing. Power it will be much as Christians now look upon the Lord's supper.

The ceremonial system was a shadow of Christ, why would we return to the shadows when we now have the reality?

 

[danmpem]

I'm just finishing up the book. I liked it, but was disappointed, at some points, that there was not more effort at detailed exegesis. Also, it seemed like much of the exegetical work offered was simply referenced from other works like Hoekema, Kline, etc.
I especially appreciated the chapter on the Olivet Discourse. This section of Scripture is one that I always felt like dispensationalists had to really "read into" to make it fit (I say that as one just "coming out of" dispensational thinking myself). At the same time, I've not been satisfied with the full preterist interpretation. I think Riddlebarger has a very solid and balanced understanding of these passages, taking a good bit of his material from D.A. Carson's commentary on Matt.
I can't say that this book has convinced me, but it has helped me understand some of the strengths of the amil. position and to face the inherent problems with premil.

Johnny Mac has a book just about the Olivet Discourse. While it's not the kind of book that I think would change anyone's mind and turn 'em Premil, he does clear up a lot of tricky passages in Matt.

Also, isn't D.A. Carson Premil?

 

[danmpem]

I'm premil and it's the first position on eschatology that I ever took, from reading PB many have taken this position until they default into Amil when they become Reformed,

That's the same thing with me, and that's why I voted "Undecided". I'm very premil, but being on PB has made me a little more optimistic toward amill.

MR. Pemberton, did you get a chance to download the messages I posted from GCA?

No, I didn't. I didn't even see that post until 5 minutes ago. Thanks!

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I picked up the book, A Case For Amillennialism by Kim Riddlebarger over the weekend, and am on Chapter 8. Has anyone read this yet? If there are any dispensationalists or pre/post millennialists who have been persuaded into Amillennialism, I just wondered what scriptures or reasoning convinced you of such a theological move?

Blessings!

I have read it and it changed me from a Pan-Millenialist to a A-Mill overnight. I used to think eschatology does not really matter a whole lot but that book changed my mind.