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Originally posted by joshua
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
Historically Hymns and spiritual songs in the church were portions of the New Testament in the early church. Many Reformed Theologians hold this to be true. I have heard other people try to refute this notion.
I just want the notion substantiated. Even if what you assert is true (that portions of the New Testament were the hymns and spiritual songs), it still does not allow for non God-breathed hymns (say of Watts, Bonar, Wesleys). I really am trying to find out how I've been combative...I certainly hope that simply defending a position is not considered combative or pharisee-like.
Originally posted by joshua
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
Originally posted by joshua
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
Historically Hymns and spiritual songs in the church were portions of the New Testament in the early church. Many Reformed Theologians hold this to be true. I have heard other people try to refute this notion.
I just want the notion substantiated. Even if what you assert is true (that portions of the New Testament were the hymns and spiritual songs), it still does not allow for non God-breathed hymns (say of Watts, Bonar, Wesleys). I really am trying to find out how I've been combative...I certainly hope that simply defending a position is not considered combative or pharisee-like.
Let me use some of Scott's reasoning with you for a minute. If there is a text of scripture that says You must only worship me with God breathed Scripture, don't you believe that many other people such as Duncan, Sproul, Fred Greco, Al Mohler, Al Martin, and many others would be rushing in to obey it for fear that they would be displeasing to God? I don't think you can claim what you said above as being absolutely true. There is no text that says this.
Randy, you're right. There's no text that says, "Worship me with only God-breathed Scripture." But, according to the RPW, whatsoever is not commanded, is forbidden. There are no commands to sing non-God breathed songs written by men who are not prophets. There are commands to sing the Psalms. Whatsoever is not commanded is forbidden.
Originally posted by joshua
The greek terms for "psalms", "hymns", and "songs" are all found in the Septuagint. Each of them are listed in the Psalms. Furthermore, the term spiritual applies to all 3 terms. You can't read today's meaning of "songs" or "hymns" back into that time.
Originally posted by joshua
Ok, Randy. So Paul ignored the meanings of the Word as defined by Scripture and intended for them to mean the same thing the Greek heathen writings meant, regardless that the 3 words were each used several times in the book of Psalms.
[Edited on 10-18-2005 by joshua]
Originally posted by joshua
Wayne, I don't think there has been an active missing of this by the mentioned good Presbyterians; rather, I think it's been a passive departure from and and an ignoring of what their Presbyterian forefathers & predecessors believed, taught, and practiced. We're all guilty of this to some extent or another. I'm not trying to seem "holier than thou", just discussing.Originally posted by wsw201
Josh,
Do you think the OPC, PCA, and the majority of the Reformed Churches missed it as well?
I. God is praised by a song, which is, 1. A very natural expression of rejoicing. Is any merry? Let him sing; and holy joy is the very soul and root of praise and thanksgiving. God is pleased to reckon himself glorified by our joy in him, and in his wondrous works. His servants' joy is his delight, and their sons are melody to him. 2. A very proper expedient for spreading the knowledge and perpetuating the remembrance of great events. Neighbours would learn this song one of another and children of their parents; and by that means those who had not books, or could not read, yet would be made acquainted with these works of God; and one generation would thus praise God's works to another, and declare his mighty acts, Psa_145:4, etc.
Matthew Henry
Originally posted by joshua
Ok, Randy. So Paul ignored the meanings of the Word as defined by Scripture and intended for them to mean the same thing the Greek heathen writings meant, regardless that the 3 words were each used several times in the book of Psalms.
3. The burden of proof in this matter does not rest upon the EPs, to prove that the Bible forbids the use of anything other than the Psalms, or that the Bible commands us to only sing the Psalms. The burden of proof rests upon the non-EPs, to prove that the matter of praise to God, which all confess was limited to the Psalms in the time of Christ, was suddenly infinitely and indefinitely expanded to include non-inspired materials of human composition.
Originally posted by Saiph
3. The burden of proof in this matter does not rest upon the EPs, to prove that the Bible forbids the use of anything other than the Psalms, or that the Bible commands us to only sing the Psalms. The burden of proof rests upon the non-EPs, to prove that the matter of praise to God, which all confess was limited to the Psalms in the time of Christ, was suddenly infinitely and indefinitely expanded to include non-inspired materials of human composition.
Easy. Mary singing the magnificat. Similar to the song of Hannah in the Old Testament.
Why was her first instinct not to sing a messianic Psalm ? ?
If she was blessed and chosen among women, surely she would have followed the RPW.
RPW applies to actual worship of God in a corporate, familial, or individual sense, with overarching regulations and stipulations for each context based on Scripture.
Mary was not writing a song to be used in corporate worship. Same with any other "song" found in Scripture outside of the Psalter.
Originally posted by Saiph
RPW applies to actual worship of God in a corporate, familial, or individual sense, with overarching regulations and stipulations for each context based on Scripture.
Ill trade you my red herring for your artificial distinction. If we are living sacrifices, then whatever is commanded corporately is commanded privately.
I challenge any RPW or EP to do the following:
1. Show me in Scripture where this distinction between corporate and private is spelled out. (Was Cain's sacrifice private ?)
2. Show me where the distinction between "element" and "circumstance" is defined in Scripture.
3. Show me where song and music is an element, and NOT a circumstance.
Mary was not writing a song to be used in corporate worship. Same with any other "song" found in Scripture outside of the Psalter.
The point is, if we are never commanded to sing songs other than the Psalms, and the distinction between private and corporate is artificial, why did she do it, when there were many messianic Psalms to sing ?
[Edited on 10-18-2005 by Saiph]
You are presupposing, based on your view of worship, that Mary was composing her magnificat as 1. a song to be sung by someone other than her, 2. not simply a prayer to God, and 3. an act of worship in a formal sense. The difference between Worship and glorifying God in how we live and act, as living sacrifices, must be distinguished. Otherwise, we join the liberals and existentialistic seeker-sensitive churches who equate EVERYTHING with Worship, with a capital "W." Finally, what Mary said, along with other such 'compositions' in Scripture, is the Word of God, not Mary, ultimately. It serves a purpose as a means of grace from God for all generations. This is not an uninspired composition, and it does not prove anything remotely close to what you would ultimately conclude from such an example.
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Therefore, we know for CERTAIN that we are COMMANDED to sing the Psalms. From my study of God's Word, I do not believe at all that we can argue in such a certain manner that we are to sing anything else but the Psalms. There are possibilities, and vague ones at that, I will concede and admit. However, from my viewpoint of who God is and who I am not, I do not have the right to worship my Creator on the basis of possibilities, only certainties. To do otherwise would be, as I previously mentioned, careless and flippant at the very least (or most). I cannot, in good conscience and out of faith, worship God with anything but His praises (the Psalter), as a result. This is how the Regulative Principle does and should work in our lives on a real-world, daily basis. It is not about strict legalism, but humility before an awesome, terrible God who has, for some reason, decided to make a covenant with me and call me into fellowship with Him through His Son. I can do nothing but what He wants me to do from that point forward, so much as His Spirit gives me the strength to do so.
Originally posted by joshua
Quick sincere question:
The Magnificat of Mary. Does it say she "sang" it, in the Greek? Same with Zecheriah.
Furthermore, are all Christians prophets like Zecheriah that they should make their own songs?
Furthermore, even IF these other songs are ok, does it allow for non God-breathed songs in worship?
46 And Mary said,
"œMy soul magnifies the Lord
Originally posted by joshua
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
BTW, I LOVE EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD!!!!!!!
Because it's a command, right?
2Ch 29:25 And he stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, harps, and lyres, according to the commandment of David and of Gad the king's seer and of Nathan the prophet, for the commandment was from the LORD through his prophets.
2Ch 29:26 The Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets.
2Ch 29:27 Then Hezekiah commanded that the burnt offering be offered on the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song to the LORD began also, and the trumpets, accompanied by the instruments of David king of Israel.
2Ch 29:28 The whole assembly worshiped, and the singers sang and the trumpeters sounded. All this continued until the burnt offering was finished.