2 Office vs 3 Office vs 4 Office.

[Doulos McKenzie]

Hey Y'all,

I have been trying to research the biblical offices and have been having trouble with which view to take. I was raised in a Calvinistic Dispensational MacArthur esq. Church that practiced and taught the 2 office view, so that has my default position for a while.

As I understand it:
2 office: Elder and Deacons only
3 Office: Minister, Elders, and Deacons
4 Office: Ministers, Doctor/Teacher, Elder, Deacon.

So what view do you hold too? Why? And if you have any helpful articles please link them.

Also, In what denominations are these different views the most prominent?

Thanks fam,

Doulos~

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Here's an article I wrote on the subject a few years back: http://www.opc.org/os.html?article_id=393&issue_id=90.

I hold a three-office view, seeing the doctor/teacher as one of the ways in which the ministerial office may be expressed (along with pastor, missionary, etc.). The real distinction is not between the three- and four-office views (since all believe the doctor/teacher to be a minister) but between the two- and three-office views.

Peace,
Alan

 

[TylerRay]

Hey Y'all,

I have been trying to research the biblical offices and have been having trouble with which view to take. I was raised in a Calvinistic Dispensational MacArthur esq. Church that practiced and taught the 2 office view, so that has my default position for a while.

As I understand it:
2 office: Elder and Deacons only
3 Office: Minister, Elders, and Deacons
4 Office: Ministers, Doctor/Teacher, Elder, Deacon.

So what view do you hold too? Why? And if you have any helpful articles please link them.

Thanks fam,

Doulos~

Seven office: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, elders, and deacons. Three of these are temporary and extraordinary; four of them are perpetual and ordinary.

In my opinion, the two-office Presbyrerians make an artificial divide between the concepts of office and function. Office comes from the Latin officium, meaning function. Also, the older writers tend to use the terms officer and functionary interchangeably.

For the office of teacher, check out Travis Fentiman's page here. Especially recommended is the portion on Daniel Wallace's treatment of Ephesians 4:11. Here we perhaps the foremost authority on Koine Greek today saying that "pastor-teachers" is an incorrect translation.

 

[Doulos McKenzie]

Here's an article I wrote on the subject a few years back: http://www.opc.org/os.html?article_id=393&issue_id=90.

I hold a three-office view, seeing the doctor/teacher as one of the ways in which the ministerial office may be expressed (along with pastor, missionary, etc.). The real distinction is not between the three- and four-office views (since all believe the doctor/teacher to be a minister) but between the two- and three-office views.

Peace,
Alan

I actually read this article when researching yesterday. Very helpful. Thank you.

 

[Doulos McKenzie]

Bump

 

[BG]

Seven office: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, elders, and deacons. Three of these are temporary and extraordinary; four of them are perpetual and ordinary.

In my opinion, the two-office Presbyrerians make an artificial divide between the concepts of office and function. Office comes from the Latin officium, meaning function. Also, the older writers tend to use the terms officer and functionary interchangeably.

For the office of teacher, check out Travis Fentiman's page here. Especially recommended is the portion on Daniel Wallace's treatment of Ephesians 4:11. Here we perhaps the foremost authority on Koine Greek today saying that "pastor-teachers" is an incorrect translation.

Couldn’t follow link


I follow a two office view.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Two office view w/ elders having differing responsibilities.

 

[earl40]

Three office for me. I know having the two office has caused some pretty bad things to happen in the PCA in my opinion.

 

[Gforce9]

As a youngster, I spent a lot of time in the principal's office......

I am a 3 office guy.

 

[TylerRay]

Couldn’t follow link

It works for me. Try this address: https://reformedbooksonline.com/ame...troduction-to-the-biblical-office-of-teacher/

 

[BG]

Three office for me. I know having the two office has caused some pretty bad things to happen in the PCA in my opinion.

What exactly do you mean

 

[Andrew P.C.]

As with Westminster, I hold a four office view. Doctors, although members of the Presbytery and co-laborers of the gospel with ministers, are particularly different then ministers.

 

[earl40]

What exactly do you mean

For starters if we understood a TE (Pastor) should be the teacher, and RE should rule, we would have much more qualified teachers in our congregations. For example have you ever been in a class on Sunday with a Pastor as one of the students and another person (A RE, Deacon or Tax Accountant) teaching the class? If so watch when the pastor speaks, everyone turns their heads to listen intently ,like in an EF Hutton commercial. People know who ought to be the teacher in that class.

 

[BG]

Here's an article I wrote on the subject a few years back: http://www.opc.org/os.html?article_id=393&issue_id=90.

I hold a three-office view, seeing the doctor/teacher as one of the ways in which the ministerial office may be expressed (along with pastor, missionary, etc.). The real distinction is not between the three- and four-office views (since all believe the doctor/teacher to be a minister) but between the two- and three-office views.

Peace,
Alan

Allen, What is the difference in authority if any in your view.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Bill:

Not sure as to the precise referent of your question but I will guess that you mean do the minister and elder bear the same rule in the church? Yes, they are equally governors in the church. The minister is all that the elder is; additionally, he is a minister of Word and Sacrament, which the elder is not.

Andrew, just fyi, I was ordained as a minister some years ago. I served as pastor for a local congregation for about ten years and then received an appointment to teach in the seminary (which my presbytery permitted me to accept). After coming to the seminary, the local congregation that my family attended issued a call to me to serve as a teacher in the seminary and as associate pastor in the local congregation. So I continue to serve as a pastor, with a primary calling to teach in the theological seminary. This is not unusual.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Romans922]

I know having the two office has caused some pretty bad things to happen in the PCA in my opinion.

You are mistaken friend. The PCA is 3 office. The reason we know this is simple. If you are a RE and then became a TE, you are ordained again. That's 3 office.

 

[BG]

Alan, I was wondering if one minister out ranks the other?

Also, what would be your scriptural argument first for a seminary and secondly for a minister being cold to a seminary, thanks in advance. Bill

 

[Doulos McKenzie]

As with Westminster, I hold a four office view. Doctors, although members of the Presbytery and co-laborers of the gospel with ministers, are particularly different then ministers.

But what denominations actually recognize the Teacher/Doctor as an office?

 

[Edward]

The PCA is 3 office.

7th General Assembly, 1979:
"Recommendation No. 1:
That the General Assembly affirm that the Scriptures teach that in addition to the fundamental office of all believers, there are also special perpetual classes of office in the Church, Elder and Deacon; and that there are within the class of Elder two orders, Teaching Elder and Ruling Elder. Adopted "
http://www.pcahistory.org/pca/2-455.html

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Bill:

No. There is a parity of office among all ministers and a parity of rule among all ministers and elders.

The second question is a huge one, quite distinct from the OP. Here's an article that I wrote years ago on the question of "why seminary?"--http://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=359&pfriendly=Y&ret=L25oLmh0bWw%2FYXJ0aWNsZV9pZD0zNTk%3D.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Romans922]

7th General Assembly, 1979:
"Recommendation No. 1:
That the General Assembly affirm that the Scriptures teach that in addition to the fundamental office of all believers, there are also special perpetual classes of office in the Church, Elder and Deacon; and that there are within the class of Elder two orders, Teaching Elder and Ruling Elder. Adopted "
http://www.pcahistory.org/pca/2-455.html

Yes formally as our stated clerk says we are 2.5 office. Functionally we are 3.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Andrew:

You are precisely correct. If the office were the same functionally, one ordained and installed as an RE in the PCA would need only be installed, as, say, a local pastor, if the office of RE and TE were really the same.

Regardless of the theory cited by Edward, in practice, separate ordinations spell separate offices. I rejoice in this and regard it as a happy inconsistency in the PCA BOCO! But the situation that Earl cited often prevails and I think that he is correct about the sense of the people in terms of the different gifting and calling of the TE.

This is not to say that there are not some elders who have similar gifting to the minister (some are even seminary-trained). There are. Perhaps at least some of these (not all, to be sure) should re-consider their calling!

Peace,
Alan

 

[earl40]

You are mistaken friend. The PCA is 3 office. The reason we know this is simple. If you are a RE and then became a TE, you are ordained again. That's 3 office.

My point is that RE ought not be TE's and be a teacher. Also I know the OPC which has a 3 office view and ordains "again" if a RE becomes a TE.

 

[Romans922]

How strange if the qualification for an elder is “apt to teach” that he ought not to teach...

 

[BG]

How strange if the qualification for an elder is “apt to teach” that he ought not to teach...

It is worse than that there are teaching elders that can’t teach.

 

[earl40]

How strange if the qualification for an elder is “apt to teach” that he ought not to teach...

Timothy was a Pastor.