1 Timothy 5:1
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Iconoclast
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the preceding context
Looking at what precedes this verse might help to suggest how to accomplish this. While giving respect to an elder as unto a father, we can still speak to him in the way set out in Chapter 4:
Sometimes we might be able to engage this person in conversation centering on spiritual things ,in a way where we ask for feedback as to his view on these things. It might be that you can ask him how he would deal with the topic from a biblical point of view,and by carefully listening to his response you might have an opportunity to fine tune and question his responses. Like in 1tim4:12 quoted above.
He might respond favorably to what the Lord is doing in your life,and perhaps you will encourage him to go out and serve the Lord also
Looking at what precedes this verse might help to suggest how to accomplish this. While giving respect to an elder as unto a father, we can still speak to him in the way set out in Chapter 4:
Sometimes we might be able to engage this person in conversation centering on spiritual things ,in a way where we ask for feedback as to his view on these things. It might be that you can ask him how he would deal with the topic from a biblical point of view,and by carefully listening to his response you might have an opportunity to fine tune and question his responses. Like in 1tim4:12 quoted above.
He might respond favorably to what the Lord is doing in your life,and perhaps you will encourage him to go out and serve the Lord also
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Iconoclast
Puritan Board Junior
Again I think it would be proper if you have a relationship with this man where he knows you care for His soul, you can ask a direct question on the topic but do so in a way where he explains his thought process.
When God has Nathan go to David he engages his mind with a story and then asks what he thinks about that story? what should be done.?
The Lord Jesus Christ did this also in many of His parables also.Like here in Matt 21
Rev. Kok,
That's a good question. I think the practical concern here is the edification of the Saint in question. Paul is mindful of the problems that Timothy is going to have as a young Pastor dealing with those in the congregation. Elsewhere he ensures that Timothy doesn't allow anyone to despise him for his youth.
I see this happen so often in the setting I'm in because new Officers are typically in their early twenties and they'll immediately have authority over senior Staff NCO's that work for them. There is a normal human tendency to despise a person for their youth. It's sort of accepted that we joke a bit about young Officers and their inexperience. Nevertheless, there are some that are very unprofessional about it. The most disciplined senior Staff NCO's render proper respect and deference.
This situation can be exacerbated by youth and I've seen it many times. I'm not precisely certain how young Timothy was. Some think he wasn't as young as we may expect. Nevertheless, there is some youthful naiveté and bravado that is particularly irritating. It takes a while for that "edge" to come off. Some of the advice that Paul gives to Timothy indicates to me that Timothy wasn't necessarily this way but it does seem like Paul is giving some wisdom to a man that hasn't quite had enough life experience to understand people really well.
There is a sense in which a strong rebuke is good for younger men. They need to be steeled. I actually go out of my way sometimes to stress young leaders out and am extremely hard on them to see if they can be refined under the pressure. I've run into problems with that in the Church as my intensity does not always come across as charitable and loving so I've had to adjust. Nevertheless, there is a solid principle in place in the Proverbs and elsewhere about driving folly and naiveté out of youth.
The reason young men are different than older men is that older men have typically made the mistakes and they're more apt to avoid certain foolish courses of action or even realize that life is much more complex than they thought when they were younger. Leaders, especially, have to become wise and steeled to the range of human sin they will encounter. Young men, for instance, tend to be deceived by people more often. I've been stung so many times in my youth that I've learned that, in many people, you get what you inspect as much as what you expect.
Thus, on the youthful side, I believe a strong rebuke and putting them through artificial consequences can wise them up in a way that might avoid real consequences.
Older men, however, are different (though this is not a guarantee). There's, of course, the maxim that there's "no fool like an old fool" but, generally speaking, there is a natural calmness and wisdom that most men will gain as they gray. Years do count for something though not for everything. There are some things that the "light of nature" teach us that we cannot read in textbooks.
I think Paul is telling Timothy that he needs to recognize the difference between and old man and a younger man in terms of where they are in life and, to some extent, the deference each deserves. Older men, unlike younger men, are past the point where artificial consequences in terms of a sharp rebuke will really do much for them. It's a bit late for them to be instructed as those who still need to get a clue about life. They may, indeed, from a spiritual standpoint need to get a clue but we need to keep in mind that their station in life is not going to lend itself to some young guy, old enough to be their grandson, treating them like they're just another twenty-something.
It seems the best way to handle older men would be to be forthright and deferrant in the presentation of what God's Word would have us do. It would help, as well, to use respectful terms of address. Leadership over older men is something that takes some time getting comfortable doing. You learn to show them the respect that they've earned from the station in their life while still making clear what the expectations are.
It's actually easier for me to do what I'm talking about than describe but I've had a number of senior SNCO's work for me. I used to respect them to the point that I was afraid to tell them when I felt they were failing me. Now, I can be very friendly with them and respectful of their position. I don't dress them down but I'm very forthright when I don't agree with their suggestion and that this is the way it needs to be. They would cooperate if I was a jerk but they cooperate even more because I show them deference but then let them know that this is the right way to go.
It should be said, finally, that an older man has no right to then reject a young man's exhortation if that younger man is in authority over him. There are some situations where, no matter how well a young Pastor might rebuke an older man, the older man is simply going to dismiss the Pastor for his youth. Simply because an old man is too proud to be rebuked by the Word of God is not evidence that the young man has failed in this advice by Paul but the maxim is generally true that you're going to get much better results with a reverant approach.
That's a good question. I think the practical concern here is the edification of the Saint in question. Paul is mindful of the problems that Timothy is going to have as a young Pastor dealing with those in the congregation. Elsewhere he ensures that Timothy doesn't allow anyone to despise him for his youth.
I see this happen so often in the setting I'm in because new Officers are typically in their early twenties and they'll immediately have authority over senior Staff NCO's that work for them. There is a normal human tendency to despise a person for their youth. It's sort of accepted that we joke a bit about young Officers and their inexperience. Nevertheless, there are some that are very unprofessional about it. The most disciplined senior Staff NCO's render proper respect and deference.
This situation can be exacerbated by youth and I've seen it many times. I'm not precisely certain how young Timothy was. Some think he wasn't as young as we may expect. Nevertheless, there is some youthful naiveté and bravado that is particularly irritating. It takes a while for that "edge" to come off. Some of the advice that Paul gives to Timothy indicates to me that Timothy wasn't necessarily this way but it does seem like Paul is giving some wisdom to a man that hasn't quite had enough life experience to understand people really well.
There is a sense in which a strong rebuke is good for younger men. They need to be steeled. I actually go out of my way sometimes to stress young leaders out and am extremely hard on them to see if they can be refined under the pressure. I've run into problems with that in the Church as my intensity does not always come across as charitable and loving so I've had to adjust. Nevertheless, there is a solid principle in place in the Proverbs and elsewhere about driving folly and naiveté out of youth.
The reason young men are different than older men is that older men have typically made the mistakes and they're more apt to avoid certain foolish courses of action or even realize that life is much more complex than they thought when they were younger. Leaders, especially, have to become wise and steeled to the range of human sin they will encounter. Young men, for instance, tend to be deceived by people more often. I've been stung so many times in my youth that I've learned that, in many people, you get what you inspect as much as what you expect.
Thus, on the youthful side, I believe a strong rebuke and putting them through artificial consequences can wise them up in a way that might avoid real consequences.
Older men, however, are different (though this is not a guarantee). There's, of course, the maxim that there's "no fool like an old fool" but, generally speaking, there is a natural calmness and wisdom that most men will gain as they gray. Years do count for something though not for everything. There are some things that the "light of nature" teach us that we cannot read in textbooks.
I think Paul is telling Timothy that he needs to recognize the difference between and old man and a younger man in terms of where they are in life and, to some extent, the deference each deserves. Older men, unlike younger men, are past the point where artificial consequences in terms of a sharp rebuke will really do much for them. It's a bit late for them to be instructed as those who still need to get a clue about life. They may, indeed, from a spiritual standpoint need to get a clue but we need to keep in mind that their station in life is not going to lend itself to some young guy, old enough to be their grandson, treating them like they're just another twenty-something.
It seems the best way to handle older men would be to be forthright and deferrant in the presentation of what God's Word would have us do. It would help, as well, to use respectful terms of address. Leadership over older men is something that takes some time getting comfortable doing. You learn to show them the respect that they've earned from the station in their life while still making clear what the expectations are.
It's actually easier for me to do what I'm talking about than describe but I've had a number of senior SNCO's work for me. I used to respect them to the point that I was afraid to tell them when I felt they were failing me. Now, I can be very friendly with them and respectful of their position. I don't dress them down but I'm very forthright when I don't agree with their suggestion and that this is the way it needs to be. They would cooperate if I was a jerk but they cooperate even more because I show them deference but then let them know that this is the right way to go.
It should be said, finally, that an older man has no right to then reject a young man's exhortation if that younger man is in authority over him. There are some situations where, no matter how well a young Pastor might rebuke an older man, the older man is simply going to dismiss the Pastor for his youth. Simply because an old man is too proud to be rebuked by the Word of God is not evidence that the young man has failed in this advice by Paul but the maxim is generally true that you're going to get much better results with a reverant approach.
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