I have a question concerning propitiation. First I would like to say I am a Calvinist. I am fully a Reformed believer. I was asked a question from an Arminian, which was: "Are we saved before we are born, or after faith in Christ?" My answer was a question. "from who's prospective, man's or God's?" Is it not true, in eternity, God saw this complete for the elect in Christ? When Christ said. "It is finished," these things, the propitiation was done? Now, through chronological order, at the appointed time, the Holy Spirit gathers the elect by regeneration, which is from man's prospective? Now, concerning 1 John and a couple other passages. 1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. I understand the "whole world" to mean, the elect from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. Not the whole world, as in every person, scripture does not teach a universal salvation. If in fact Christ died and was the propitiation of every single person ever born, then everyone in fact would be saved. Considering propitiation means: "the removal of God's wrath from a sinner." Therefore propitiated sins cannot, be punished, correct? Even the sin of unbelief is covered by the blood of Christ. Now these next two passages I have read many times, but they suddenly brought on a new meaning. Especially since I always understood that God cannot look on sin, we, as children of wrath, before Christ, are an enemy of God. But there is something here, something which seems different: But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved), Eph 2:4-5 God loved us, even when we were dead in our sins? He actually looked upon sinners and had mercy on us, children of wrath? The next verse shows, God does not accept all sinners, some He hates (or rejects) Romans 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." Wouldn't this mean, since Jacob is of the elect, as far as God is concerned, Christ (in eternity) died for Jacobs sins? But to my question, or opinion? Are we saved as far as God is concerned, eternity speaking, or is it that since Christ was the propitiation for our sins, that God power flows towards us in mercy, and at the appointed time we shall be saved? I think I know the answer, but am very interested in everyone's understandings. I have been chewing on this for a while. Thanks in advance, God Bless.