How about Colosians 2:11-12?
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timfost
Puritan Board Senior
Yes, as well as circumcision. Who was supposed to be circumcised?
Ryan&Amber2013
Puritan Board Senior
One thing is sure: Paul saw a link between circumcision and baptism. That's pretty significant on its own.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
This is reflective of all of the gospel age. This has to be seen on a few heads; thinking covenantally, 1) the sign has always been for believers and their children. 2) The covenant has internal and external distinctions; true believers are in the internal side of the covenant, i.e. the true Israel of God. 3) those in the external side of the covenant have never been 'buried with him in baptism (or circumcision)'. *My emphasis added. Ishmael and esau were both in covenant; as was Demas, Ananias and Saphira and Simon Magus.
Consider all the warning passages in the book of Hebrews and the rest of the epistle letters to the local church. If everyone was in the internal side, who sat locally in these churches Paul was writing to, it would seem odd that Paul warned against, 'falling away'. Unless of course u are prepared to say that the Apostle was an Arminian.
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 28:19–20.
David,
Do u equate 'discipleship' w/ regeneration and conversion? In other words, do u believe that all disciples are saved, as described above in the Great Commission?
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 28:19–20.
David,
Do u equate 'discipleship' w/ regeneration and conversion? In other words, do u believe that all disciples are saved, as described above in the Great Commission?
Spiritual circumcision, done by God before water baptism!
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
All the thesis of the OP proves is that those who receive the outward sign of baptism should likewise possess the inward reality of regeneration. That point was also true in the Old Testament. Hence, we read verses like "circumcise the foreskins of your hearts," and yet it was not an obstacle to the children of believers receiving the outward sign of circumcision. Consequently, the same principle with respect to the new covenant of sign of baptism (that those who have received the outward sign should possess the inward reality) is no basis on which to forbid infant baptism.
"Move along! Nothing to see here!"
"Move along! Nothing to see here!"
timfost
Puritan Board Senior
Kinghezy
Puritan Board Sophomore
I am still waiting for a "dog chasing its tail" gif. Not that I have any threads in mind that could use it...Or we could just get another baptism debate going!
Regi Addictissimus
Completely sold out to the King
Are you inviting a dialog or are you just talking at the household baptists/paedobaptists on here? Honestly, there isn't much to dig into in your post. Why don't you at least exegete it for us and demonstrate why this seems so obvious to you? If not, I would suggest refraining from making such posts.
I am just suggesting that Paul directly tied faith in Jesus to one now being water baptized, as that would be the clear reading of the text!
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Tim,
It's really not a debate.
Paul would have said the same of circumcision.....it is by faith one is in the internal side of the covenant. Nothing has changed.
It's really not a debate.
Paul would have said the same of circumcision.....it is by faith one is in the internal side of the covenant. Nothing has changed.
Regi Addictissimus
Completely sold out to the King
Okay. Why? Walk us through your thinking. Give us something to work with.
Paul states here though that faith is what gets us into the NC and the church, not the water baptism, for without faith in Jesus, one just getting all wet!
Regi Addictissimus
Completely sold out to the King
Brother, I refuse to interact with you if you continue to exclaim one-liners at everyone. Must you always end with an exclamation point? A period would do just fine on 99.9% of your posts.
Brother, I’m okay that you are a convinced Baptist. That’s fine. However, this kind of flippant rhetoric appears to be a cheap shot, and is frankly just plain offensive.
Please give the people in this thread the courtesy of elaborating on your exegesis and theologizing so actual interaction might happen.
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I did not mean to make any here upset, was just making a tongue in cheek reply.
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Regi Addictissimus
Completely sold out to the King
Do you think the Covenant promises of the Lord are something that warrants tongue-in-cheek comments?
I know, brother. I’m not angry. It’s just that people are already getting frustrated at the direction (or lack thereof) of this thread. These kinds of comments just add to it.
I am trying to understand how we cannot get from that passage that Paul links water baptism to one having faith in Christ, do that under the NC just believer's get baptized.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Your post doesn't contradict what I wrote;
in fact, it says exactly what u said above. Hence, you have no idea what you are actually reading. As I have said in the past to you, Sir, u should spend some time reading and quit posting.
I understand that. I think what is frustrating to some on this thread is that when pressed, you simply reassert your understanding of the passage, mostly in one quick sentence. However, all of us already know what you think the passage says. What we want to know is how you came to that understanding. Asserting and explaining/defending are two different things.
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
David, what you must do here is further the discussion. Ask, for example, "In what way can an infant be said to have been 'buried with Christ' in his baptism, and 'raised to walk in newness of life'?" That'll give them a question to work with, the answer to which I'm curious as well, though I suspect the answer will be along the lines of "the child is joined to Christ in the external administration of the covenant."
But let's see what they say.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Can an infant be regenerated?
Yes, but that would be apart from water baptism, as that would be the work of the Holy Spirit proper.
Grest question, as Paul seems to be affirming that water baptism apart from faith in Christ and having new life by the Holy Spirit avails nothing!
SeanPatrickCornell
Puritan Board Junior
Answer: Possibly. There seems to be indication that at least two biblical figures were regenerate in utero.
Follow on question: If an infant were regenerated, how could we tell?
I'm curious under what circumstances it would be necessary to determine whether an infant be regenerate.
Only God would know if they were or not.
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