The Seven churches

We are studying through the book of Revelation in our Sunday School class. In Rev 2:18, we come to the church @ Thyatira. Christ has some specific problems w/ this church. A female prophetess, 'Jezebel' who is advocating for sexual sin, worship of idols and the offering of food to them. He goes on to make mention of their good attributes.

It would seem obvious that this church in question, had a female leading.

It dawned on me that Christ still saw this gathering as a church as He addresses them as such. Given our age and the temperament of the church culture we live in, how do u see such gatherings? Considering Arminian churches, churches that have female pastors, etc? It would seem as if Christ was much more tolerant than we are.

I raised the point in the class that we would have to assume that this church had the 4 marks needed to be called a church, else they wouldn't even warrant a rebuke.

Thoughts.

Good point. If they did not repent Christ will remove them as a true church. Was it physically remove through some calamity or their decline was so clear the rest of the church recognized they were fallen away from the faith? If the latter, in the divided church of today I'm not sure how the sound churches can implement this through discipline, but clearly it should not be solely based on having for some space of time, not indefinite, women ministers.

As a note: There is a difference between "angel", and self imposed and allowed influences in the church.

Angels are ministers. Jezebel here is distinguished from the angel at Thyatira as an influential force as a prophetess. She is not the angel of the church, and Christ does not warn her, but the minister and congregation. They should know better, which illicits the warning of their congregation being removed.

I don't personally think fornication means sexual deviance, but as it does all through Ezekiel, idolatry, which John's apocalypse is very familiar.

One question to answer is how long Christ allowed the window of repentence on this? From the time the church got the letter, to their candlestick being removed, how long was this?

Bullinger notes that two heretics (Cerdon and Marcion) claimed that there was no church in Thyatira in AD 95. But there was a church there in AD 69 (possible date?) when John wrote Revelation. That's a relatively short time for repenting according to God's calendar, but a relatively long period of time according to practical theology. 20 years or so? Maybe less?

Also note, that God sometimes doesn't remove anything. He abandons a church and leaves them to themselves and their idolatry. Hosea 4:17, "Ephraim is joined to idols, Let him alone." This would mean the power of the Spirit which works grace, righteousness and holiness in the means of grace, ceases to produce the works of righteousness in the midst of "Jezebel-like" churches that allow and continue in idolatry.

Matt,
It would seem, from the Greek that the actual leadership ‘allowed’ or ‘let’ this prophetess “teach”. I must assume that she was, at least in a leadership position.

Scott Bushey said:

Matt,
It would seem, from the Greek that the actual leadership ‘allowed’ or ‘let’ this prophetess “teach”. I must assume that she was, at least in a leadership position.

Click to expand...

Like a sunday school teacher, I dont know if the Greek really argues that way. Some of the MSS dont tilt it.

In an actual office, I would say no. The angel is rebuked for allowing whatever was going on, to go on. That doesnt argue for imposing her into some "leadership role", but rather, not stopping her influence to birth her "children".

Her sin surrounded encouragment into the festive guilds, the idolatrous worship at the time. It seems wierd to me that she'd be having a "class" of sorts.

Which is also why (because of idolatry) the designation of Christ changes and is now Son of God, focusing on his global authority and divinity over all idolaters on the earth, which would include the evil festivals of pagan nations.

Its interesting to me that Christ calls her idolatry, "the depths of Satan."

Maybe your OP surrounds changing up the question a bit.... "Is Christ tolerant of the depths of Satan in his church?" Or, "For how long can the depth of Satan be tolerated in a church?"

I think, overall, we'd have to say, not long. John is very adamant in his word choices in Christ's rule of his church in Revelation; not long, quickly, short time, soon, etc. It was all very imminent.

Plus, we are not taking into account God leaving them to themselves, which arguably, could happen quite a bit faster.

I dont think, in any way, that such a thought process allows us to "OK idolatrous practices," thinking, "well stuff like this is happening today, so Christ must be really tolerant of that, and not mind so much, because so many are engaged in it." I think that is a complete fallacy and overturns the very idea of what Christ is talking about to the seven churches, which is to repent immediately.

Plus, one also has to take into account history. In other words, we dont "give time" to the Roman Catholic church today in this same regard to repent. In such a light, many churches have already been the brunt of historical and theological departure from the truth. Just because Jezebels children might still be around today, doesn't mean we start "today" and give them more rope. It just means we were born in a time where there are idolatrous professing Christians. It doesnt argue that they are genuine.

While I understand the question, I think it invites too much speculation and misses the point of the warning our Lord made to the church.

The words of Joseph Addison come to mind...