Do Muslims and Jews Both Worship same God as us?

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Dachaser said:
The interesting thing is that the Koran supports that Jesus was born of a virgin, sinless, did miracles, was second greatest prophet, and even called Messiah, so why would Muhhamed rate over him?
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Because none of those things prove he was fully God (if taken in isolation from the biblical narrative). This is why evidential apologetics is so weak.

On another note, regarding Jews today--we can use biblical categories: they do not worship the true God. They are covenant-breaking apostates. Jesus said their father was the Devil.
 
ReformedReidian said:
Because none of those things prove he was fully God (if taken in isolation from the biblical narrative). This is why evidential apologetics is so weak.

On another note, regarding Jews today--we can use biblical categories: they do not worship the true God. They are covenant-breaking apostates. Jesus said their father was the Devil.
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They would still be dealing with Yahweh though, while the Muslims start right off with another god...
And still not sure why islam has their prophet superior to Jesus, as their own Koran seems to make him much superior!
 
Dachaser said:
They would still be dealing with Yahweh though, while the Muslims start right off with another god...
And still not sure why islam has their prophet superior to Jesus, as their own Koran seems to make him much superior!
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What do you mean "dealing" with Yahweh? In fact they are not dealing with God. That is the issue. Have you considered the passages that others have brought to this discussion?
 
ZackF said:
What do you mean "dealing" with Yahweh? In fact they are not dealing with God. That is the issue. Have you considered the passages that others have brought to this discussion?
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Yes, and I do agree that the Jewish people have no special relationship with God today, apart from being saved by the New Covenant One that Jesus installed with His death/resurrection, but think that them at least knowing about the true God by their OT scriptures is different than Muslims, who have a false god revealed to them in the Koran.
 
Dachaser said:
They would still be dealing with Yahweh though, while the Muslims start right off with another god...
And still not sure why islam has their prophet superior to Jesus, as their own Koran seems to make him much superior!
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They are apostate, so they can't be worshipping Yahweh.
 
Dachaser said:
They have the inspired OT scriptures that tell them about the real God, and my point is that they do have a witness to the true God in their scriptures, unlike the Muslims, who have no revelation to them in the Koran!
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In some ways that makes there situation worse. The Jews have the 'oracles of God.' You're committing category errors. The OP was about worship not the veracity of Scripture. In the same vein JWs and Mormons have the Bible as well but don't worship him.
 
ZackF said:
In some ways that makes there situation worse. The Jews have the 'oracles of God.' You're committing category errors. The OP was about worship not the veracity of Scripture. In the same vein JWs and Mormons have the Bible as well but don't worship him.
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You are right about expanding my own Op, and think the answer would be what all basically have shown me here, that the Jews and Muslims are not worshipping Yahweh....Whether they even have a revelation/knowledge of Him from their scriptures would be a different thing altogether...
 
Concerning their definitive apostasy in 70 AD, Josephus notes:

Josephus bears eloquent testimony to this, writing repeatedly of God's wrath against the apostasy of the Jewish nation as the cause of their woes:

"These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of man, and laughed at the laws of God; and as for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning the rewards of virtue, and punishments of vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country." "Neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitJul in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." "When the city was encircled and they could no longer gather herbs, some persons were driven to such terrible distress that they searched the common sewers and old dunghills of cattle, and ate the dung they found there; and what they once could not even look at they now used for food. When the Romans barely heard this, their compassion was aroused; yet the rebels, who saw it also, did not repent, but allowed the same distress to come upon themselves; for they were blinded by that fate which was already coming upon the city, and upon themselves also."

Chilton concludes:

Finally, St. John summarizes Israel's crimes, all stemming from her idolatry (cf. Romans 1:18-32). This led to her murders of Christ and the saints (Acts 2:23, 36; 3:14-15; 4:26; 7:51-52, 58-60); her sorceries (Acts 8:9, 11; 13:6-11; 19:13-15; cf. Revelation 18:23; 21:8; 22:15); her fornication, a word St. John uses twelve times with reference to Israel's apostasy (Revelation 2:14; 2:20; 2:21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2 [twice]; 17:4; 18:3 [twice]; 18:9; 19:2); and her thefts, a crime often associated in the Bible with apostasy and the resultant oppression and persecution of the righteous (129).
The Great Tribulation
 
ReformedReidian said:
Concerning their definitive apostasy in 70 AD, Josephus notes:

Josephus bears eloquent testimony to this, writing repeatedly of God's wrath against the apostasy of the Jewish nation as the cause of their woes:

"These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of man, and laughed at the laws of God; and as for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning the rewards of virtue, and punishments of vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country." "Neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitJul in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." "When the city was encircled and they could no longer gather herbs, some persons were driven to such terrible distress that they searched the common sewers and old dunghills of cattle, and ate the dung they found there; and what they once could not even look at they now used for food. When the Romans barely heard this, their compassion was aroused; yet the rebels, who saw it also, did not repent, but allowed the same distress to come upon themselves; for they were blinded by that fate which was already coming upon the city, and upon themselves also."

Chilton concludes:

Finally, St. John summarizes Israel's crimes, all stemming from her idolatry (cf. Romans 1:18-32). This led to her murders of Christ and the saints (Acts 2:23, 36; 3:14-15; 4:26; 7:51-52, 58-60); her sorceries (Acts 8:9, 11; 13:6-11; 19:13-15; cf. Revelation 18:23; 21:8; 22:15); her fornication, a word St. John uses twelve times with reference to Israel's apostasy (Revelation 2:14; 2:20; 2:21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2 [twice]; 17:4; 18:3 [twice]; 18:9; 19:2); and her thefts, a crime often associated in the Bible with apostasy and the resultant oppression and persecution of the righteous (129).
The Great Tribulation
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There still though seems to be in the Scriptures the hope for the Jewish peoples coming back to Yahweh right before the Second Advent of Jesus, so the nation on the whole is in darkness, but there might still remain the light of the Messiah to shine upon them...
 
Dachaser said:
There still though seems to be in the Scriptures the hope for the Jewish peoples coming back to Yahweh right before the Second Advent of Jesus, so the nation on the whole is in darkness, but there might still remain the light of the Messiah to shine upon them...
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Sure, but right now they are covenantally dead.
 
The question is, who are they? All those who can trace their ancestry back to Jacob? All those who still keep the ceremonial laws of Moses? All those who worship at the Temple? Those people no longer exist. What are the distinguishing characteristics of the Israel for whom there is a future?
 
It might help to distinguish between "God" as a proper noun and "Godhead" as a generic common noun used to refer to the divine nature. Anyone who believes in a "God" who is not the one only living and true God subsisting in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, merely believes in Godhead or Godhood.
 
KMK said:
The question is, who are they? All those who can trace their ancestry back to Jacob? All those who still keep the ceremonial laws of Moses? All those who worship at the Temple? Those people no longer exist. What are the distinguishing characteristics of the Israel for whom there is a future?
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They would be the Jewish Race, who has no hope apart from the New Covenant, but God has not finished His plans to have them saved and woken up to their Messiah right before His second coming.
 
Dachaser said:
They would have at least 1 parent to have been Jewish!
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Are those parents 'Jews' because of their culture, their ethnicity, their address, their politics, their genealogy, or their personal choice? Or is it a combination of some of these?
 
KMK said:
Are those parents 'Jews' because of their culture, their ethnicity, their address, their politics, their genealogy, or their personal choice? Or is it a combination of some of these?
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I am referring to Jews based upon ethnic traits!
 
Dachaser said:
What are the differences?
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Abrahamic Jews are the descendants of Abraham. There aren't many today, since they happened to lose every war they fought since the first century.

Ashkenazi/Khazars were sex-slavers in the middle ages around the Black Sea. They converted to Talmudic Judaism because it matched their barbarism. They have little ethnic identity with Semitic Jews. Most Eastern European Jews are Khazars
 
Dachaser said:
I am referring to Jews based upon ethnic traits!
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Dachaser said:
They would be the Jewish Race
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Dachaser said:
By their birth...
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Are they Jews by their ethnicity, their 'race', or their 'birth'?

According to Webster's, 'ethnicity' means "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition."

'Race' means "each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics."

By 'birth', I assume you mean by a genealogical relationship to Jacob.

I admit that I struggle with the WLC Q 191, where it says we should pray that the Jews are called. I have no problem praying that all sorts of people are called, but who were these 'Jews' to which the Reformers referred? Who are the 'Jews' to which modern day Dispensationalists refer? I heard a prominent Calvary Chapel pastor once say that we don't know who they are. If that's the case, then maybe they already have been called and we don't know it because we don't know who they are.
 
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