To homeschool OR not to Homeschool? What curriculum to use and How MUCH will is cost?

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One of the few beauties of living in IL is the state's hands-off home school laws. For good or ill, home educators here are completely free from any sort of state interference. Every once in a while, a rogue superintendent will try to force the issue with families, but they're pretty quickly put in their place by HSLDA.
 
Alabama was just the first of several states I looked at. There may be worse, but that's bad enough in my view.

Well, I live in Alabama and homeschool in Alabama. HSLDA says that Alabama is one of the best states for homeschooling. It is almost unheard of for any family to have run-ins with the public schools.
 
Bill I realise that your school system is better than ours, but you may want to keep in mind that your kids are a bit young to be missionaries.

I do not believe I was trying to say my children were missionaries so I ask for you to withdraw that comment. I don't care if one homeschools or public schools or private schools. I believe the thread started to asking the question to homeshool or not to homeschool. I think there are many considerations you have to think about. There are those how say where I send my kids are a bad place. Well none of them have even been there. They are quick to judge them, but not willing to get involved to try to change it. No matter what one decides to do with schooling there children the most important part is being involved it what they are learning no matter if it is in the home or somewhere else. If one is not willing to put in the work or have trouble teaching I would suggest looking at other options and not get on a band wagon.
 
No matter what one decides to do with schooling there children the most important part is being involved ... If one is not willing to put in the work or have trouble teaching I would suggest looking at other options and not get on a band wagon.

:handshake:
 
A public school builds upon sand, there is no foundation to it. If God is absent, what good can come of it in the end? We as fathers have the responsibility to educate our children and who we appoint as a proxy to that (which I have no problem with, though we homeschool) is hugely important. I cannot justify handing my children to Caesar, unless there is simply no other option.
 
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There have been so many helpful responses already, but I'll throw in my thoughts as a new home schooler. My oldest daughter just turned 6 and has been officially homeschooling since September. We're using Sonlight as a basis, with other math and electives. We spent about $700 for everything this year. (We could have done it cheaper, I'm sure, but I have benefited from the schedule and "out of the box" route this year. Next year might be different now that I've gotten my feet wet.) I spend maybe 3 hours a day with her as dedicated school time. She has 3 younger siblings (4, 2, and 9 months) and this includes interruption time. :) It can be exhausting, but I think it *is* worth is for our family. I love that I can tailor everything to our exact needs - go faster or slower as needed, really making sure concepts are learned thoroughly at the child's pace. For example, because I worked on teaching her to read and doing basic math last year, she was beyond the normal K language arts, so we're doing first grade work in those subjects. I also love that she's at home to spend time with her siblings and me - once her work is done, she has time for play, crafts, music practice, etc - we're not wasting time with busy work, lining up, etc.

As far as regs, we're in MD, which according to HSLDA is a state of moderate regulation (ie, their second highest ranking) but we don't have "hour" requirements. You have to show that you are teaching all the subjects taught in public school - for us that's language arts, math, history, science, art, music, health, and P.E. Seems overwhelming! However, bearing in mind that if my daughter went to public school , she'd only be doing science/art/music/heath/PE once a week at most, it makes it much more do-able.
 
A public school builds upon sand, there is no foundation to it. If God is absent, what good can come of it in the end? We as fathers have the responsibility to educate our children and who we appoint as a proxy to that (which I have no problem with, though we homeschool) is hugely important. I cannot justify handing my children to Caesar, unless there is simply no other option.

:amen:
 
Homeschool. Definitely Homeschool! We've been doing it (formally) for 15 years and have about 5 more years to go.

We've done it with our children who have a wide range of learning ability. We homeschooled our oldest through 12th grade. She was the only National Merit finalist in our county the year she graduated. She's now a junior in college majoring in biblical languages. On the other end of the educational spectrum is our youngest daughter with numerous learning impairments. In both these cases, as well as with our other children, we've been able to tailor the curriculum to meet their particular needs, interests, and abilities.

There are tons of great curruculum options covering a wide range of student needs and abilities (as well as parent needs and abilities).

In terms of financial cost -- it may cost you more money than sending your children to the government schools (or it may not). But I'd look at the cost in more than dollars and sense. There's lots of evidence of the cost and damage to your children of sending them to the government schools.

"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6 (ESV)
 
I would like to thank everyone for their comments (for/against homeschooling). I have found much encouragement from the dialogue above!
For the record: We are going to homeschool our covenant children (and NO we're not jumping on a bandwagon or selling out).
At the end of the day, I probably should have titled this Thread...
"To homeschool OR private school? Cost of curriculum vs. tuition? Where does one begin?"
As I've stated above, my only reason for even mentioning public school is because it seems like the easy route/out (Uncle Sam is going to get his money before our paycheck ever hits the bank regardless of the choice we make concerning how to educate our children)! Ultimately, we see no REFORM in the government school system (at least since J Gresham Machen's day). So, we're unwilling to place our covenant children into the government school system and hope for the best. Instead, we are going to attempt to construct our own Christ-centered home curriculum and pray that the one true, living, God will be glorified in our feeble attempt to train His children, in righteousness, to fear Him!
 
Alabama was just the first of several states I looked at. There may be worse, but that's bad enough in my view.

Well, I live in Alabama and homeschool in Alabama. HSLDA says that Alabama is one of the best states for homeschooling. It is almost unheard of for any family to have run-ins with the public schools.
I didn't mean to cause any offense. I don't know what the typical parent has to go through to homeschool there; that's why I said "I don't know how strictly they enforce those laws" in my original post. My point was simply that some states have liberal laws and some have rather severe laws regarding homeschooling, with Alabama being one of the first one's I noticed. I'm glad to hear that you are still able to homeschool there without the authorities interfering. In my view those laws are unjust, so I'm glad they aren't enforcing them. I pray that continues and they eventually repeal them altogether.
 
I would like to thank everyone for their comments (for/against homeschooling). I have found much encouragement from the dialogue above!
For the record: We are going to homeschool our covenant children (and NO we're not jumping on a bandwagon or selling out).
At the end of the day, I probably should have titled this Thread...
"To homeschool OR private school? Cost of curriculum vs. tuition? Where does one begin?"
As I've stated above, my only reason for even mentioning public school is because it seems like the easy route/out (Uncle Sam is going to get his money before our paycheck ever hits the bank regardless of the choice we make concerning how to educate our children)! Ultimately, we see no REFORM in the government school system (at least since J Gresham Machen's day). So, we're unwilling to place our covenant children into the government school system and hope for the best. Instead, we are going to attempt to construct our own Christ-centered home curriculum and pray that the one true, living, God will be glorified in our feeble attempt to train His children, in righteousness, to fear Him!

I wouldn't even go the private school route unless you have an exceptionally good private school, and usually that means lots of money.

Homeschooling is defintely less expensive. You can spend anywhere from $100 to $600 on curriculum depending on what you buy, where you buy and how much you buy.

As I believe I mentioned before, and I know others have, you really need to figure out what philsophical approach you want to take before you start buying curriculum. The biggest mistake you can make is going out and purchasing an entire program and suddenly discover that you don't like it for whatever reason.

I suggest learning about the various approaches. The christian approach is a given, but then you have to consider do you want to give your child a conventional education (teaching to the state standards) or a classical education using a dialectic approach. I've been homeschooling my children for years, and I am still overwhelmed at times with what's out there.
 
My personal opinion is that if the public schools were all great halls of godly wisdom, completely void of secular humanism, violence, sex, drugs, abuse of authority, etc, etc, and honored Christ in all that they do, and all of the private schools were, as well, I would still feel compelled to raise and educate my own children.

I know there are a number who disagree. <insert "You're Not A Bad person If You Don't Homeschool" disclaimer here>

But my wife really does like being around our kids all day. And I like the flexibility of seeing them anytime I want throughout the day. I like being able to say, "Hey, I'm taking Thursday and Friday off. Let's head for the beach," without worrying about getting permission from the government to take my kids out for a couple of days. I like being able to school "anytime, anywhere," which to me means "all the time, everywhere." I like training them up Deuteronomy 6:4-9 style. It suits us just fine.

It's our responsibility as their Christian parents. We'll hold on to them for that 6-7 hours each day for those 36-weeks. That 1200+ hours per year is highly valued.

<repeat disclaimer from above here>
 
Alabama was just the first of several states I looked at. There may be worse, but that's bad enough in my view.

Well, I live in Alabama and homeschool in Alabama. HSLDA says that Alabama is one of the best states for homeschooling. It is almost unheard of for any family to have run-ins with the public schools.
I didn't mean to cause any offense. I don't know what the typical parent has to go through to homeschool there; that's why I said "I don't know how strictly they enforce those laws" in my original post. My point was simply that some states have liberal laws and some have rather severe laws regarding homeschooling, with Alabama being one of the first one's I noticed. I'm glad to hear that you are still able to homeschool there without the authorities interfering. In my view those laws are unjust, so I'm glad they aren't enforcing them. I pray that continues and they eventually repeal them altogether.

That's fine. I was not offended. Actually one of the reasons Alabama is good for homeschoolong is precisely because there are no homeschool laws. When the good people from HSLDA were helping out in the early days they saw the value in that: the State cannot regulate that which it does not codify. Church schools have great latitude since they cannot be infringed upon because of the 1st amendment. If a church school has classrooms in homes the State can't say a thing against it. The states that continually give homeschoolers the greatest grief are.those with homeschool laws. If they have a law they will continually try and expand its scope.

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The states that continually give homeschoolers the greatest grief are.those with homeschool laws. If they have a law they will continually try and expand its scope.

There are advantages, in my opinion of having laws for home schooling children. I have seen cases where parents who were home schooling their children were neglectful in teaching mathematics and reading, and as a result their children were behind academically to the state standards by several years. There needs to be accountability in the education of children for the sake of the children, and if a parent is not knowledgeable enough in a certain area then they need to bring someone in that is so that their children do not fall behind. The standards for home schooling education should be in the areas of grammar, spelling, mathematics, science, and history. The purpose of home schooled education should not just be to teach the faith, but to provide for the academic needs of the student so that they will be well prepared for adult hood and to train their own children one day. The beauty of home schooling is the one on one attention that is given to the child, however there are some potential problems with home schooling as well which could easily be balanced out by establishing a communion with other home schooling parents and reading on teaching methodology. Home schooling is not for everyone and it is a commitment that one better be able to deliver if one starts on the process of education. There is more to education then just buying and using curriculum book. It requires flexibility in teaching techniques, an ability to be able to explain a concept to a child gradually for the sake of their own children’s understanding, and a creativity of testing the children’s understanding. I think to some degree the church has romanticized home schooling without giving people the resources or avenues to provide parents what they need, which would include a list of standards for various age groups and assistance when needed. Education should not be thought of as an individual enterprise, but should be done with a broader context in mind.
 
David there needs to be accountability, but it's not within the States' legitimate sphere of influence. There was that case in the UK last year where the State took away a woman's son because he was overweight. That seems shocking to us, but 100 years ago it would have seemed shocking to Christians for the State to to have the power over education that it does today. The stuff creeps up on us, so we've got to be careful.
 
Jess, it's encouraging to read that you will homeschool your children. My five little sisters are homeschooled and they are prospering academically but even more so spiritually. I thank God for it.
 
David there needs to be accountability, but it's not within the States' legitimate sphere of influence. There was that case in the UK last year where the State took away a woman's son because he was overweight. That seems shocking to us, but 100 years ago it would have seemed shocking to Christians for the State to to have the power over education that it does today. The stuff creeps up on us, so we've got to be careful.

Tim, if the state does not provide the accountability for educational and academic standards then who will in a home schooling environment? The church? Perhaps in an ideal world, but we are far from that. Like it or not public schools have educational standards in place, and parents if their home schooling need to try to meet the standards or excel at them. I personally would not have a problem with the State taking a child away from their parents if they refuse to educate their child in the areas of the English arts, mathematics, science, and history. I see not educating your child as a form of child abuse. If you cannot educate the child then send the child to someone that can. It should be granted that public schools may not always be the best environment; its better then having a child educationally speaking fend for him or herself. Like it or not the church as a whole has been failing in its purpose of teaching religious education, so I do not think it would be wise to add more subjects on top of that failure.

I have seen good results and poor results from home schooling as a Christian and as an educator. I want to make it clear that I am not personally criticizing people who home school and see it as a good option with responsible parents; if one can do it then they should. However we need to know our shortcomings and balance out those short comings which requires wisdom. I have certain concerns for homeschooling, because I care and know what could happen if accountability is not in place because man as a whole are depraved beings. I have seen cases as an educator of lazy home schooling parents or parents who just did not know how to educate their child effectively. If one does not want standards on their child education, then you might as well get rid of the state standards for education as well and let each teacher be subscribed to teach whatever they want and when without boundaries. Not every home schooling parent is a Christian, therefore what about the non-religious home schooling parent or those of a differencing faith; don’t they need to have the some or the same academic standards placed on them as compared to in a public school? I would say so, the difference is of course the environment of that education, not necessarily the objective concept of what being taught in math or English. Think of the schooling environment, such as at home or in a classroom, as a circumstance of education and the objective concepts of what are taught as elements of education. It is the elements that must be accomplished, it how you satisfy those elements which allows for flexibility through circumstance of education.
 
I personally would not have a problem with the State taking a child away from their parents if they refuse to educate their child in the areas of the English arts, mathematics, science, and history.

Our world views are so radically different that we might as well be on other planets. You would have no problem if the State took my kids (and here in the US that could mean giving them to two homosexual men to raise) if I didn't teach them history. The likelihood of that happening is fortunately about zero, but if they did, and you acquiesced to the point of supporting the State, I would have no problem considering you a threat to my family and taking whatever actions I could get away with to remove the threat. It's that serious to many of us here, at least those of us with a Reformed world view although they wouldn't probably put it as strongly.
 
It's that serious to many of us here, at least those of us with a Reformed world view although they wouldn't probably put it as strongly.

Yes and I would put it that strongly.
 
I personally would not have a problem with the State taking a child away from their parents if they refuse to educate their child in the areas of the English arts, mathematics, science, and history.

Our world views are so radically different that we might as well be on other planets. You would have no problem if the State took my kids (and here in the US that could mean giving them to two homosexual men to raise) if I didn't teach them history. The likelihood of that happening is fortunately about zero, but if they did, and you acquiesced to the point of supporting the State, I would have no problem considering you a threat to my family and taking whatever actions I could get away with to remove the threat. It's that serious to many of us here, at least those of us with a Reformed world view although they wouldn't probably put it as strongly.
In our government, here in the United States of America, parents do not have absolute right over their children to do as they please. You do not have the right to starve your child, or to beat the child senselessly. Why? Simple, because of the well being of the child, and if the well being of the child is not being cared for to allow for such abuse is morally sinful, because of the responsibility of parents to provide care and support to their children. Our State, I mean the U.S., from common grace recognizes there comes a point to for sake of the child’s mental and physical well being that the child should be taken away if the child is being neglected. Not only is such a crime of the state, but based on the reformed view of covenant children it should also be a crime of the church and one that discipline should be given accordingly. I only made the case for children to be taken away from parents because of parents refusing to teach or have some one teach the basics standards of the state, which are typically not that high academically speaking. You can teach the standards without the political agenda some of the teachers in public schools, because of the political views being a circumstance, and not a objective standard, of education. Your children would be taken away because you refuse to teach your children or send them to public school or by hiring a tutor so that your child or children will reach the standard of the state. The issue is not the fact you refuse to teach your child history, but that you refuse the law of the land that is not contrary of scripture. If the law says and has reason for it that a child should know some history about a particular topic then you need to deliver otherwise you are purposely breaking the law of the state and providing a terrible testimony to your children and the state by provoking to violence so that you can do whatever you want. Not teaching children promotes a lifetime of ignorance and distain for those subjects, such as math and reading. It can damage their learning process and critical learning process. The falling behind in the subjects and disrupt their ability to go to college or worse yet function in the society in which they live and thus affecting what they could do as their livelihood. Nobody trying to take away your children and the likelihood of your children going to a homosexual couple is in fact quite small. And there should be no concern of children being taken away of you do what your suppose to do in accordance to the law, which exists for the well being of everyone and not just you as in individual. For law you see is for the good of the society, and thus exists to promote good for that society. Therefore applying accountability by law those they need accountability for the sake of children. We should not try to think strictly under individualistic standards and how that directly affects us, but to see how this affects our society. We live in two kingdoms, citizens of both; therefore what is binding on that school teacher to teach should and must also be binding upon you because that is the standards issued by the state for what your child should be able to know and do.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:15 PM ----------

It's that serious to many of us here, at least those of us with a Reformed world view although they wouldn't probably put it as strongly.

Yes and I would put it that strongly.

I sure hope you do not take that position as it relates to child abuse. Hopefully you can understand my position. And if your not following through your commitment to teach your children hopefully the church would step in for discipline prior to the state if your reformed.
 
My personal opinion is that if the public schools were all great halls of godly wisdom, completely void of secular humanism, violence, sex, drugs, abuse of authority, etc, etc, and honored Christ in all that they do, and all of the private schools were, as well, I would still feel compelled to raise and educate my own children.

I know there are a number who disagree. <insert "You're Not A Bad person If You Don't Homeschool" disclaimer here>

But my wife really does like being around our kids all day. And I like the flexibility of seeing them anytime I want throughout the day. I like being able to say, "Hey, I'm taking Thursday and Friday off. Let's head for the beach," without worrying about getting permission from the government to take my kids out for a couple of days. I like being able to school "anytime, anywhere," which to me means "all the time, everywhere." I like training them up Deuteronomy 6:4-9 style. It suits us just fine.

It's our responsibility as their Christian parents. We'll hold on to them for that 6-7 hours each day for those 36-weeks. That 1200+ hours per year is highly valued.

<repeat disclaimer from above here>

:ditto: ;) :up: :amen: :cheers: :surrender: :applause: :eureka: :agree:

---------- Post added at 11:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 PM ----------

I suggest learning about the various approaches. The christian approach is a given, but then you have to consider do you want to give your child a conventional education (teaching to the state standards) or a classical education using a dialectic approach. I've been homeschooling my children for years, and I am still overwhelmed at times with what's out there.

Thank you very much!
 
Tim, if the state does not provide the accountability for educational and academic standards then who will in a home schooling environment?

No one. It is not anyone's job to force good parenting. You cannot regulate parenting. You can make it illegal to injure a child, but that's not a parenting law, it's a sixth commandment law. The state does not have jurisdiction over education and it's absolutely disgusting to think they should have power to remove children who are not educated in the expected way. I agree with Tim's feelings about that. I know things are run a little differently over there in the People's Republic of California, but that does not make it right or biblical.

What are y'all going to do next, take away children who are taught poor manners? Remove children who are allowed to play video games all day? I know, perhaps we should remove Muslim children from their parents since Islam is a lot more dangerous than not knowing history?
 
Tim, if the state does not provide the accountability for educational and academic standards then who will in a home schooling environment?

No one. It is not anyone's job to force good parenting. You cannot regulate parenting. You can make it illegal to injure a child, but that's not a parenting law, it's a sixth commandment law. The state does not have jurisdiction over education and it's absolutely disgusting to think they should have power to remove children who are not educated in the expected way. I agree with Tim's feelings about that. I know things are run a little differently over there in the People's Republic of California, but that does not make it right or biblical.

Who said anything about regulating good parenting, that not the issue. I am not defining what good parenting is. Parenting to a degree can be regulated if a child is being abusively treated. At this point the sixth commandment does overlap towards the realm of parenting. A perfect example of this is from my home state of Arizona with Arizona Revised Statutes 13-3620, part A, subsection 3 (2005 Arizona Code - Arizona Revised Statutes §13-3620  Duty to report abuse, physical injury, neglect and denial or deprivation of medical or surgical care or nourishment of minors; medical records; exception; violation; classification; definitions - ). It is a law with the punishment that ranges from a class one misdemeanor to a class 6 felony, whereby neglect and a variety of abuses are dealt with against adults, which include in A.3 parents, stepparents, and legal guardians of a minor.

The state does have legal jurisdiction over education of minors. You may deny this personally, but compulsory education laws do exist and can vary from state to state. All you need to do is a quick Google search and you can find such laws. One may deny that the states have the right to have such a law, but denial is not going to get rid of the laws and it is still a law of the land that should be obeyed because we are not dealing with an issue against the gospel or scripture. Furthermore if a parent in Arizona can sue and win if I didn’t teach the state standards at a school then you can see the judicial courts ruling based on educational policy mandated by the state. And hence a legal jurisdiction by the state. It is why teachers like paper trails, it protects from wrongful lawsuits.

What are y'all going to do next, take away children who are taught poor manners? Remove children who are allowed to play video games all day? I know, perhaps we should remove Muslim children from their parents since Islam is a lot more dangerous than not knowing history?
I never said anything about video games, or poor manners, instead am dealing with real objective educational standards (not behaviors) that are easy to find at a state’s department of education website and educational accountability which is on par with a child’s growth and development positively. Chances are if a parent is being neglectful with teaching history they probably will be also in another subject like English or math.

Also if you see your children as covenant children then that means they should also be in the care of the church, just like you are, otherwise you’re granting they not really part of the church. Therefore you are called by your church not to treat children any way you like, but instead to bring them up in the faith and not to discouragement or wrath, instead to the nurture and admonition of the Lord ( see Eph 6:4 and Col. 3:21). It is for this reason why we would be encouraged to home school children. But if we are to do that we should be as a testimony of the world as Christians mindful to the rules and objective standards of education of the state in which we live in and not cause a war against the state in an unlawful manner. Children are a gift from God, but if a parent is neglectful in their responsibility that doesn’t mean that God will not take that blessing away by some means (such as the state) if that parents duty, which includes to educate his or her child, is not being meet. For remember the state is responsible for all its citizens (including children), and will have to on that day give an account for what they did as leaders.

I will not respond anymore on this thread because we are now moving away from the point of the thread.
 
if you see your children as covenant children then that means they should also be in the care of the church, just like you are, otherwise you’re granting they not really part of the church. Therefore you are called by your church not to treat children any way you like, but instead to bring them up in the faith and not to discouragement or wrath, instead to the nurture and admonition of the Lord ( see Eph 6:4 and Col. 3:21). It is for this reason why we would be encouraged to home school children. But if we are to do that we should be as a testimony of the world as Christians mindful to the rules and objective standards of education of the state in which we live in and not cause a war against the state in an unlawful manner. Children are a gift from God, but if a parent is neglectful in their responsibility that doesn’t mean that God will not take that blessing away by some means (such as the state) if that parents duty, which includes to educate his or her child, is not being meet. For remember the state is responsible for all its citizens (including children), and will have to on that day give an account for what they did as leaders.

Dear Mr. Jolley,
I am aware that you are unwilling to respond anymore on this thread but as the individual who began the thread I do have a few sincere questions for you. First of all, (a) Do you have children? (b) If yes, do you see your children as covenant children? (c) At what point is it unlawful for a Christian to teach their children contray to the objective standards of education of the state? (d) Where does one draw the line? And, (e) Who draws that line? To the best of my knowledge, the judicial branch of our government has pretty much deemed it unlawful to teach (as Science) that "all things" were created "In the Beginning" by the One True and Living God of Biblical Christianity while simultaneously considering Evolution (in regard to the ORIGIN of the species) to be Science. (f) Is it therefore unlawful to teach my children from the only rule God has given to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him? (g) If the state is responsible for all its citizens (including children), at what point is does a child have rights? 28 days after birth? At birth? At conception? (h) Where does one draw the line? (i) Who draws that line? When you stated your reason for leaving you said, "we are now moving away from the point of the thread" but the thread ask the question, "To homeschool OR not to Homeschool?" and from where I sit it doesn't appear that we have moved away from that point much if any! So, I'll ask you personally... (j) Should I homeschool my covenant children assuming, if I don't meet the standards of education (that are becoming more hostile to the Word of God) of the state, that God will take the "blessing [the children He has intrusted to me] away by some means (such as the state)?" OR (k) Should I not homeschool my covenant children in order to avoid causing a war against the state?
In Christian Love,
Jess
 
Also if you see your children as covenant children then that means they should also be in the care of the church, just like you are, otherwise you’re granting they not really part of the church. Therefore you are called by your church not to treat children any way you like, but instead to bring them up in the faith and not to discouragement or wrath, instead to the nurture and admonition of the Lord ( see Eph 6:4 and Col. 3:21).

We were not discussing whether Christian children should be educated (all grant this), but whether it is a grievous sin for the state to kidnap children (the Bible and the Westminster Larger Catechism call this "man-stealing," and both label it a great sin against God). You have expressed support for this practice and that is the subject under discussion. I urge you to thoughtfully reconsider your stated agreement with this wickedness on the part of the state, which grows more common every year.

I do agree with your decision to discontinue this discussion, since in light of WLC Q. 142, your view is technically outside the confessional limitations of this board:

Q. 142. What are the sins forbidden in the eighth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the eighth commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are, theft, robbery, man-stealing, and receiving anything that is stolen; fraudulent dealing, false weights and measures, removing landmarks, injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man, or in matters of trust; oppression, extortion, usury, bribery, vexatious lawsuits, unjust enclosures and depredation; engrossing commodities to enhance the price; unlawful callings, and all other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbor what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves; covetousness; inordinate prizing and affecting worldly goods; distrustful and distracting cares and studies in getting, keeping, and using them; envying at the prosperity of others; as likewise idleness, prodigality, wasteful gaming; and all other ways whereby we do unduly prejudice our own outward estate, and defrauding ourselves of the due use and comfort of that estate which God hath given us.
 
Since you started the thread I will respond to each question.
I am aware that you are unwilling to respond anymore on this thread but as the individual who began the thread I do have a few sincere questions for you. First of all, (a) Do you have children?
First it may be good to indicate my background. I was a math teacher in the state of Arizona for several years. I had a set of standards I had to obey by in order to teach, standards that if I did not keep I could potentially be sued and lose my job. As both a teacher and a tutor I have seen negative and positive aspects to homeschooling; whereby parents who did not know what they were do really confused their children to such things as rules for adding/subtracting or multiplying/dividing integers. My first year teaching I also taught science, besides math; Chemistry, Biology, Physics, and generic science class called earth science (including topics ranging from geology to astronomy). So for a given year I could have up to 120+ kids; not counting students that I tutor on the side. I do not have children of my own, but I have seen educating young people as more then just a job, but a calling. Kids see that passion for the subject and are attracted to it, which is why I accidentally started a free high school tutoring session during the lunch hour. I always invited my students to come in if they needed help at any time, whether it be before school, after school, or during the lunch hour if they needed extra help. Anyway other students form different math classes started to come in for help. The point of the story is that even though I may not have biological children. I have a genuine concern for their educational growth and well being. I have seen to many bad teachers as a tutor who let poor students just walk away and fail because of the issue of time. At the end of the day lack of time should never be an excuse for failing a student, you make the time and go into partnership with a child’s parent so that the student can perform at the level that they should; which is why I like the concept of homeschooling because in that context if it is done correctly there is a one to one personal time given to teaching of a subject; which is always a better environment due to a lack of a need of issues regarding classroom management or other classroom distractions.

(b) If yes, do you see your children as covenant children?
As a Baptist, I do not see children as covenant children as a classification. My point is that if one is to call children such then that means you cannot do whatever you want with them and the church as a say in their care, just like they care for your soul. Children under this concept are more then just Christian, but also seen as Christians even though they will be denied the Lord’s Supper until the time of their own examination or confirmation. Regardless of the covenant children category however, I think it is the job of parents to give the level of care that is superior to that of the non-believer, which is to go beyond the standards of a secular education, so that children can be better prepared for life in the secular world and the church. Therefore children will learn the standards of a secular education in the local cultural or political environment that they live, plus the rule of faith from scripture.

(c) At what point is it unlawful for a Christian to teach their children contray to the objective standards of education of the state?

Since states have compulsory laws, and we are citizens under such laws we are mandated for children to attend school. Now in the context of homeschooling that school is the home. Each state has a list of standard objectives for children to reach in their education, including not just math, but also reading. If it has been observed that a child is two or more years behind in the areas of reading, writing, and math of the state standards then something must be done so that the student can catch up. That does not mean ripping the child out of the home, but instead the parent must provide some means for the child to catch up. These standards are not arbitrary in nature, and are typically developed by seasoned teachers with considerations in place of child development by request of the state. The standards are typically basic in nature and follow a general logical pattern. One can apply a classical education technique and still be teaching to the standards, this can be observed through standardized testing. Now the point where it becomes unlawful for Christian not to teach their children the standards is if their not implementing that time to teach; it is a violation of the law based on the compulsory laws. It would be unwise to ignore the standards for several reasons. The first being that they have more expertise with teaching children then you do. Secondly, there is the goal in mind to prepare the majority of them in college; which is one of the goaling aspects of the standards. Third, so that students will be well equipped as thinking individuals to be profitable members of society, which in part would also make them good citizens. Fourth, so that nothing can hinder the student from that desired success; so that they are able to run that business or work at that mechanics shop, or to follow any career path through a university setting, or even as an active member of the military. A good teacher knows the answer to the question on why you need to learn this or that.

(d) Where does one draw the line? And, (e) Who draws that line? To the best of my knowledge, the judicial branch of our government has pretty much deemed it unlawful to teach (as Science) that "all things" were created "In the Beginning" by the One True and Living God of Biblical Christianity while simultaneously considering Evolution (in regard to the ORIGIN of the species) to be Science.

Is there prejudice towards certain aspects of the state and judicial branch? The answer is yes. However if one looks at say strand 4 of the Arizona academic standards for science regarding evolution, particularly P.O. 5 you would see that evolution being called a theory in the H.S. standards. Therefore it should be taught as that, a theory. When I taught on this subject I gave the standard arguments and then showed the major problems with whatever I was talking about at the time. I shouldn’t get in trouble for it because I wasn’t teaching creation science, but was instead using material that I developed from respected secular scientists (non intelligent design scientists) that was showing the problems of the theory of evolution. One goal I remembered having was communicating the major difference between natural selection and the theory of evolution, which sometimes students combine as the same thing, which is not the case. I also remember addressing in entire session to information theory in genes and how information is lost. Now I admit there a slight of hand going by where the expectation is to teach evolution, which I did, and then giving students the tools by my own example to dismantle the theory, which as a parent you can do as well. I did this all in the name of critical thinking and it was all in my lesson plan, which I did not get in trouble for. As a teacher you just need to be careful how you do it. It is not my job in a public school to teach to any religion, but in a homeschooling environment you can. Now in the case of evolution, I think homeschoolers should learn the theory in accordance to the standards and then do what I did and dismantle the theory based on science and not religion that way students can be better prepared to address the issue when they go to college and sit in on their Bio 101 class. If I quoted from the bible in a science class then I would not be teaching science, but religion. However one can still use the framework of presuppositions of scripture, namely that “in the beginning God created” and still be teaching science. Just in a secular science class I cannot say who created or the attributes of the one doing the creating, because in the eyes of the state such is the responsibility of parents to teach religion. It is for this reason homeschooling is in fact better because of a fuller organic approach to education, instead of a focused area of study in which I did. In homeschooling everything can come together in a nice package, because not only do you teach the science but the religion to fill in the gaps of science. The standards establishes create a baseline and expectation for your children to reach and excel over through the methodological process of the parent. The line was drawn by the state through other educators and then passed on to the parents to practice wisdom, but not abuse. For it is through abuse of the system that more lines are drawn by the state for the sake of the child so that the child could receive a fair education, which is that child’s right by federal law.

(f) Is it therefore unlawful to teach my children from the only rule God has given to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him?

If all you teach as a homeschooler is the word of God the answer is yes, it is unlawful. Children need more then just scripture to live in a world of common grace. They need to know their history, they need to know how to problem solve, not just repeat a catechism question or have a portion of scripture memorized. In the biology class that I taught if on an exam someone said a bat is a bird (Lev. 11:13-19) instead of a mammal I would mark them wrong. They need to know how to interact in this fallen world and scripture alone is not efficient. Scipture will not teach you how to be a plumber, it is not going to teach you to solve for an unknown in an equation, it will not teach you why the American Revolution took place, or about electricity. What scripture teaches is all we need to know in matters of faith and the practice of that faith through the law and the gospel. Children need to learn how to enact and engage the world in which they live in an educated fashion. We are not to purposely allow for ourselves as a faith to be ignorant of the outside world, particularly if we are to share the hope that is within us. Since this is the case then we should to the best of our ability learn and teach literature/reading, writing, math, science, logic, history, and so on. If all one does is just talk about scripture and not the various disciplines and categories, with the difference of separation of categories between them at the appropriate times then one is not preparing their child for the world, which in part the responsibility of parents, not just teaching the faith. Therefore you are not just going against the State, but also by God in his common grace. I have seen what happens when children are not taught appropriately by means of methodology or by being taught false information, they get discouraged in the subject, break down, and refused to learn. Misinformation is the bain of education and can do more harm then good, resulting possibly in denying the faith, which I have seen from people who grew up in the church and after the second semester of college leave the faith. Therefore one has to be extremely careful in how one teaches and what you teach has consequences; it does not matter if it is in the classroom or in a home, there are always consequences which is why careful treading must be done in regards to various subjects. And if one is careful and teaches appropriately then there should be no fear for the child, for God has been glorified by what was taught and one can enjoy the truthfulness and riches of God’s blessing through imparted knowledge with faith in the gospel.

(g) If the state is responsible for all its citizens (including children), at what point is does a child have rights? 28 days after birth? At birth? At conception? (h) Where does one draw the line? (i) Who draws that line? When you stated your reason for leaving you said, "we are now moving away from the point of the thread" but the thread ask the question, "To homeschool OR not to Homeschool?" and from where I sit it doesn't appear that we have moved away from that point much if any! So, I'll ask you personally...

I do not care what form of government one is in, every government has the responsibility from God to care for all their citizens. Now everyone born in the U.S. is a citizen, and everyone in the world has the right to be born. Now the point of this thread is not to deal with the issue if an infant is a citizen at the moment of birth or 28 days later. I am not going to deal with that, because at the age in which children start school they are citizens by law and that is what I am addressing. Now should infants be protected by law, you bet and there are several laws out there for their protection such as Public Law 107-207 ( also called the Born Alive Protection Act of 2002). There are even cases in various states in the past that I have heard of double murder charges in the case in which pregnant women were murdered. But such talk in not addressing the issue of who should educate children and that discussion of should be a citizen is for another thread. Within the borders of the State, the State is responsible for the protection of their citizen from murder, bodily harm, theft, and so on. The State for a long time now has been involved in education and created in each individual state compulsory laws to fight against truancy (which parents are punished through a fine to the city) and to restrict working conditions for children (such as in a factory or mine) for the sake of their own well being and for the purpose of training for a trade eventually (based on the English Poor Laws of the 16th century and later reflected by the colonies, such as the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1642). The first compulsory law for Massachusetts as a state didn’t occur I think until about 210 years later.

In Romans 13, we are called to be good citizens and remember that pagan governing authority that Paul was talking about was appointed by God. We are to obey these authorities and not promote ignorant foolish behavior based on our Christian liberty and instead we are called to honor such authorities. We see this in 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Titus 3:1. Part of being good citizens is obeying the laws that the State as issued, unless the State asks you to sin such as denying that Christ came in the flesh and is God. But that not what going on here in regards to education. If the state requires that a child should receive so much instruction then that child should receive that instruction as being good citizens; in fact go further then the bare boned standards of the state such as teaching sowing or cooking (what I call applied chemistry) which can show real life applications of what is taught in school without the hindrance of keeping your eye on 34 more young ones at the same time. This is a good work and one that the state would not reject you for it.

(j) Should I homeschool my covenant children assuming, if I don't meet the standards of education (that are becoming more hostile to the Word of God) of the state, that God will take the "blessing [the children He has intrusted to me] away by some means (such as the state)?" OR (k) Should I not homeschool my covenant children in order to avoid causing a war against the state?
There is an assumption being applied here and that is that the standards are hostile against the Word of God. They are only hostile if you make them hostile, they are so bared boned in content and objective it almost impossible to be hostile to them unless you cannot perform the basic objective. If you cannot perform the basic objective then you need to get someone who can. If you do not understand basic algebra then when your child gets to that point what will you do? If you do not know something then pass that responsibility on to someone else or teach yourself quickly. If you cannot teach yourself a particular subject then you have no business to teach your child that, and in fact can do more harm then good. Therefore one must prepare ahead time so that they are able to teach their children the basics as a good foundation and be able to build upon on that foundation. Homeschooling you child is a wisdom issue, if you can do it then please do it, but let me warn you it may require large amount of work and time. I think to some degree we have romanticized homeschooling and placed homeschooling as a new law for Christians to keep if they are in the faith. You do have options and I think the standards work best as a guide and a benchmark to where your child is at, that is really what they were originally designed for. Do not be afraid to ask for help with professional teachers in your church for ideas or lesson plan approaches. I would also recommend getting your husband involved as well, because it would not be just your activity alone. Have him teach were you are weak and vise versa. The standards are not that difficult to keep and could be judged by some kind of physical means, such as an oral test or written examination. Education should be presented in a structural and disciplined process, which the standards assist with.
Also if you see your children as covenant children then that means they should also be in the care of the church, just like you are, otherwise you’re granting they not really part of the church. Therefore you are called by your church not to treat children any way you like, but instead to bring them up in the faith and not to discouragement or wrath, instead to the nurture and admonition of the Lord ( see Eph 6:4 and Col. 3:21).

We were not discussing whether Christian children should be educated (all grant this), but whether it is a grievous sin for the state to kidnap children (the Bible and the Westminster Larger Catechism call this "man-stealing," and both label it a great sin against God). You have expressed support for this practice and that is the subject under discussion. I urge you to thoughtfully reconsider your stated agreement with this wickedness on the part of the state, which grows more common every year.

I do agree with your decision to discontinue this discussion, since in light of WLC Q. 142, your view is technically outside the confessional limitations of this board:

Q. 142. What are the sins forbidden in the eighth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the eighth commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are, theft, robbery, man-stealing, and receiving anything that is stolen; fraudulent dealing, false weights and measures, removing landmarks, injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man, or in matters of trust; oppression, extortion, usury, bribery, vexatious lawsuits, unjust enclosures and depredation; engrossing commodities to enhance the price; unlawful callings, and all other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbor what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves; covetousness; inordinate prizing and affecting worldly goods; distrustful and distracting cares and studies in getting, keeping, and using them; envying at the prosperity of others; as likewise idleness, prodigality, wasteful gaming; and all other ways whereby we do unduly prejudice our own outward estate, and defrauding ourselves of the due use and comfort of that estate which God hath given us.

Austin in regards to your response, I do not see taking a child from an abusive home as man-stealing. If you think it is appropriate and a parent’s right to repeatedly kick their children in the face (spanking a kid’s rear a different story), or to burn them with cigarettes, or allowing a seven year old to wander around a house covered with feces without consequence from the state, whereby the child is removed from such an environment then I ask you please to reconsider. Please request to adopt such a child and care for him or her. If anyone thinks the behavior I just listed is appropriate not only hurts their Christian witness, but also is guilty of the same commandment as the parent conducting the behavior against God and the child. To save the child is a practice of love and to promote social stability by the state. Many here probably have never seen an abused child because of their Christian bubble, I have in this world and it breaks my heart. I accept that it is a shame that an organization like CPS exist, but they exist because of the depravity of parents towards their kids.

Now in regards to education. If children are two or three or more years behind in were they should be at developmentally (such as reading) then the question that needs to be asked is why. Is there a learning disability? What and how is the parent teaching? Can anyone you know help you? What can the state do to help? If the parent refuses to get help, what should be done? If a child is not being educated then, whether it is through neglect or incompetence, the law has been broken and there must be consequences for that.

I think part of the issue is that we are too individualistic. The I and my mentality many times promotes sin. We struggle with the idea of authority, trying to collect as much authority as we can attain for ourselves. When it comes to raising children it is not by the individual parents alone. There must be in place a means to keep parents accountable so that they will do what they must. Therefore a union is established between the family and state, who biblically should be protecting the innocent and carries with it the force of law. There must be a balance between these two entities so that justice is done, no man has the right to exercise personal justice, which makes it difficult if grandparents or uncles or others within the family contexts sees what going on and does nothing. Now there is the danger of the government abusing the power, but does not argue against the need for balance between the two. Just like lords of land must answer to the king in olden days, so must the father in regards to the lack of justice in his own realm. If we see abuse or the signs of abuse taking place and the problems that exist in a home are not addressed then we participate in the sin and do damage against the child; along with sinning against Almighty God, who will one day judge the hearts of all mankind. The WLC is not speaking of a case of abuse against a child, and they are not going to be sold into slavery or used as a slave by the State. Therefore this is a misapplication of man-stealing. Children are not possessions that we own, but instead entrusted to us by God to be nurtured. If non-Christians or the state desire for the good of children then why shouldn’t we? We should and we must practice that in wisdom.

Now I wish you all a good day and I will return to the board probably Friday night.
 
There is an assumption being applied here and that is that the standards are hostile against the Word of God.

I don't believe the prevailing assumption here is that the standards themselves are hostile to the Word of God. Rather, the assumption is that an educational environment that is not explicitly founded upon and permeated by God's Word will be, in effect, hostile to that Word, whether implicitly or explicitly. Those here that promote homeschooling and/or Christian schooling (including myself, a public university professor) do so not because they believe that the state standards are flawed in their entirety, but because they believe that state education builds upon a faulty foundation (humanism) and proceeds toward a faulty goal (individual success--or, more likely, "good citizens"), in spite of the "nuggets" of truth that are to be found in the curriculum. Christian education, when properly done, builds upon a firm foundation (Christ and His Word), and proceeds toward what is ultimately the only worthy goal ("to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever"). To do any less is necessarily viewed as a violation of the biblical injunctions to parents regarding the upbringing of their children (cf. Deuteronomy 6, Ephesians 6, etc.), though I think most of us would allow for rare circumstances in which God has providentially placed a family in a situation where there are no educational options but public school.

The question is, are we raising our children for the glory of God, or for the good of the state? When held in a right relationship to one another, these two goals are not in conflict. Too often, though, the state seeks to overstep its bounds, and in the end "we must obey God rather than men."

(Back to my usual lurking. Great thread!)
 
Austin in regards to your response, I do not see taking a child from an abusive home as man-stealing. If you think it is appropriate and a parent’s right to repeatedly kick their children in the face (spanking a kid’s rear a different story), or to burn them with cigarettes, or allowing a seven year old to wander around a house covered with feces without consequence from the state, whereby the child is removed from such an environment then I ask you please to reconsider.

We have gone over this. Injuring a child is illegal regardless of whether the child is one's own, and should be prosecuted as a crime. If both parents are imprisoned for this or another crime, then the child should go to a relative. This is irrelevant to whether children may be removed from their parents because of what they were or were not being taught. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that family can rightfully be separated because the government disapproves of what the child is/is not taught. It is, therefore, state-sanctioned kidnapping.
 
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