Robertson's Rules Question

[bravebee]

The session of a PCA church calls a congregational meeting for the stated purpose of making an announcement and explaining a sessional decision. After this announcement there is a motion from the floor to open the floor for discussion on the issue. There is a second. The clerk states that there can be no such discussion, citing the Book of Church Order, saying that no business may take place except that which was in the stated purpose of the meeting. The members claim that with a proper motion and second, discussion must be allowed.

Who's right?

 

[Scott1]

Perhaps this ought be posted in the Presbyterian Polity forum.

A Pastor once wisely said the Book of Church Order is something one learns by using it.

I could be wrong, but see only a requirement for General Assembly, and perhaps Committees and Commissions to operate by Robert's Rules. It's not clear if it is required for Sessions, but certainly impliedly can be adopted by them.

Presbyterian Church in America
Book of Church Order

RULES OF ASSEMBLY OPERATIONS

ARTICLE XIX. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURE
19-1. Except as otherwise specifically provided in these Rules, Robert’s
Rules of Order, Newly Revised, shall be the standard in parliamentary
procedure.

CHAPTER 25
Congregational Meetings

25-1. The congregation consists of all the communing members of a
particular church, and they only are entitled to vote.
25-2. Whenever it may seem for the best interests of the church that a
congregational meeting should be held, the Session shall call such meeting
and give public notice of at least one week. No business shall be transacted
at such meeting except what is stated in the notice. The Session shall always
call a congregational meeting when requested in writing to do so:
a. by one-fourth (1/4) of the communing members of a church of
not more than one hundred (100) such members,
b. by one-fifth (1/5) of the communing members of a church of
more than one hundred (100) and not more than three hundred
(300) such members,
c. by one-sixth (1/6) of the communing members of a church of
more than three hundred (300) and not more than five hundred
(500) such members,
d. by one-seventh (1/7) of the communing members of a church of
more than five hundred (500) members but not more than seven
hundred (700) such members,
e. by one hundred (100) of the communing members of a church of
more than seven hundred (700) such members.
Upon such a proper request, if the Session cannot act, fails to act or
refuses to act, to call such a congregational meeting within thirty (30) days
from the receipt of such a request, then any member or members in good
standing may file a complaint in accordance with the provisions of BCO 43.
25-3. The quorum of the congregational meeting shall consist of onefourth
(1/4) of the resident communing members, if the church has not more
than one hundred (100) such members, and of one-sixth (1/6) of the resident
communing members if a church has more than one hundred (100) such
members.

25-4. The pastor shall be the moderator of congregational meetings by
virtue of his office. If it should be impracticable or inexpedient for him to
preside, or if there is no pastor, the Session shall appoint one of their number
to call the meeting to order and to preside until the congregation shall elect
their presiding officer, who may be a minister of the Presbyterian Church in
America, or any male member of that particular church.
25-5. A clerk shall be elected by the congregation to serve at that meeting
or for a definite period, whose duty shall be to keep correct minutes of the
proceedings and of all business transacted and to preserve these minutes in a
permanent form, after they have been attested by the moderator and the clerk
of the meeting. He shall also send a copy of these minutes to the Session of
the church.
25-6. A particular church which is not incorporated, desiring to elect
trustees, may select from among its membership trustees or officers of like
nature who shall have the power and authority:
a. to buy, sell, or mortgage property for the church,
b. to accept and execute deeds as such trustees,
c. to hold and defend titles to the same, and
d. to manage any permanent special funds entrusted to them for the
furtherance of the purposes of the church.
In the fulfillment of their duties, such trustees shall be subject always
to the authority, and shall act solely under the instructions of the
congregation which they serve as trustees. The powers or duties of such
trustees must not infringe upon the powers or duties of the Session or of the
Board of Deacons. Such trustees shall be elected in regularly constituted
congregational meetings.

25-7. If a particular church is incorporated, the provisions of its charter and
bylaws must always be in accord with the Constitution of the Presbyterian
Church in America. All the communing members on the roll of that church
shall be members of the corporation. The officers of the corporation,
whether they be given the title trustee or some other title, shall be elected
from among the members of the corporation in a regularly constituted
congregational meeting. The powers and duties of such officers must not
infringe upon the powers and duties of the Session or the Board of Deacons.
All funds collected for the support and expense of the church and for
the benevolent purposes of the church shall be controlled and disbursed by
the Session and the Board of Deacons as their relative authorities may from
time to time be established and defined.
To the officers of the corporation may be given by the charter and
bylaws of the corporation any or all of the following responsibilities:
a. the buying, selling and mortgaging of property for the church,
b. the acquiring and conveying title to such property, the holding
and defending title to the same,
c. the managing of any permanent special funds entrusted to them
for the furtherance of the purposes of the church, provided that
such duties do not infringe upon the powers and duties of the
Session or of the Board of Deacons.
In buying, selling, and mortgaging real property such officers shall
act solely under the authority of the corporation, granted in a duly constituted
meeting of the corporation.
25-8. The corporation of a particular church, through its duly elected
trustees or corporation officers, (or, if unincorporated, through those who are
entitled to represent the particular church in matters related to real property)
shall have sole title to its property, real, personal, or mixed, tangible or
intangible, and shall be sole owner of any equity in any real estate, or any
fund or property of any kind held by or belonging to any particular church, or
any board, society, committee, Sunday school class or branch thereof. The
superior courts of the Church may receive monies or properties from a local
church only by free and voluntary action of the latter.

25-9. All particular churches shall be entitled to hold, own and enjoy their
own local properties, without any right of reversion whatsoever to any
Presbytery, General Assembly or any other courts hereafter created, trustees
or other officers of such courts.
25-10. The provisions of this BCO 25 are to be construed as a solemn
covenant whereby the Church as a whole promises never to attempt to secure
possession of the property of any congregation against its will, whether or
not such congregation remains within or chooses to withdraw from this body.
All officers and courts of the Church are hereby prohibited from making any
such attempt.
25-11. While a congregation consists of all the communing members of a
particular church, and in matters ecclesiastical the actions of such local
congregation or church shall be in conformity with the provisions of this
Book of Church Order, nevertheless, in matters pertaining to the subject
matters referred to in this BCO 25, including specifically the right to affiliate
with or become a member of this body or a Presbytery hereof and the right to
withdraw from or to sever any affiliation of connection with this body or any
Presbytery hereof, action may be taken by such local congregation or local
church in accordance with the civil laws applicable to such local
congregation or local church; and as long as such action is taken in
compliance with such applicable civil laws, then such shall be the action of
the local congregation or local church.
It is expressly recognized that each local congregation or local
church shall be competent to function and to take actions covering the
matters set forth herein as long as such action is in compliance with the civil
laws with which said local congregation or local church must comply, and
this right shall never be taken from said local congregation or local church
without the express consent of and affirmative action of such local church or
congregation.
Particular churches need remain in association with any court of this
body only so long as they themselves so desire. The relationship is
voluntary, based upon mutual love and confidence, and is in no sense to be
maintained by the exercise of any force or coercion whatsoever. A particular
church may withdraw from any court of this body at any time for reasons
which seem to it sufficient.

25-12. If a church is dissolved by the Presbytery at the request of the
congregation and no disposition has been made of its property by those who
hold the title to the property within six months after such dissolution, then
those who held the title to the property at the time of such dissolution shall
deliver, convey and transfer to the Presbytery of which the church was a
member, or to the authorized agents of the Presbytery, all property of the
church; and the receipt and acquittance of the Presbytery, or its proper
representatives, shall be a full and complete discharge of all liabilities of such
persons holding the property of the church. The Presbytery receiving such
property shall apply the same or the proceeds thereof at its discretion.

Chapter 25 is the constitutional charter for congregational meetings.

---------- Post added at 09:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 AM ----------

No business shall be transacted
at such meeting except what is stated in the notice.

It would seem that if notice was for an informational meeting, it would be limited to that, and would include at least incidental comments or questions from the congregation.

The purpose not being to discuss the merits, but informational.

There are mechanisms by which a minority can call for a special meeting for the specific purpose of discussing, evaluating the decision though. That would, of course, require advance notice, and a specifically stated purpose with the requisite numbers mentioned in Chapter 25.

 

[Wannabee]

RRO is a great guide and very helpful unless/until it becomes the master.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

I think an argument could be made that this was the same business, and not some other topic.

On the other hand, the Moderator makes a decision, and then people can challenge his decision, and see who wins.

If folks don't like how a meeting went, there are provisions in that BCO for congregants calling a meeting, stating the business, and carrying on.

The congregational meeting isn't the place where Presbyterian church government takes place. Other than discussions, its ordinarily convened to elect, to ratify, or to reject.

 

[sastark]

First, it seems that discussion of items at an informational meeting is in line with the idea of an "informational meeting". If the congregation would have attempted to make a motion to do some sort of business, then, perhaps, they could be ruled out of order. But, from the limited description you gave, it seems that the Chair was wrong.

Also, Bruce already mentioned this, but, the Chair can be challenged on any decision. See my post here: The Ruling Elder: Robert's Rules of Order: Challenging the Chair

Just because a chair makes a rule does not mean that is the end of the issue. I wish more people knew this.

 

[tcalbrecht]

The session of a PCA church calls a congregational meeting for the stated purpose of making an announcement and explaining a sessional decision. After this announcement there is a motion from the floor to open the floor for discussion on the issue. There is a second. The clerk states that there can be no such discussion, citing the Book of Church Order, saying that no business may take place except that which was in the stated purpose of the meeting. The members claim that with a proper motion and second, discussion must be allowed.

Who's right?

What was the wording in the call for the meeting?

Officers and members should know:

- Decisions of the moderator can always be overridden by the body.

- Congregational meetings in Presbyterian circles are usually very limited in scope to things like election of officers.

- It’s not necessary for the session to call a formal congregational meeting to make an announcement.

- Sessions should tread carefully. Calling a congregational meeting gives the appearance to the members that a decision is on the agenda and motions, etc will be in order, which they always are in a formal meeting.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

It's Robert's not Robertson's

First, we must determine the nature of the meeting. If this meeting is not deliberative in nature, then all motions are "out of order."

Secondly, if this assembly was deliberative in nature, then the actions all deliberative assemblies are subject to the governing documents of the organization - in this case, the BCO. If what the congregation is attempting to do is contrary to the BCO, then it's out of order - end of story - doesn't matter what the moderator says.

Thirdly, I'm no expert on Presbyterian polity, but any attempt to re-open a matter already decided by the session sounds wrong to me. Unless the session was doing something it didn't have the authority to do - but a case for that would have to be made from the church's governing documents.

I don't know all the details, but if I had to guess, I'd say your Clerk is right.