Unrestricted Psalms Before Unaccompanied Psalms

[jcoggers]

Hi all. This is my first post; good to be here, (posting from Geelong, Australia).

Long story short: After coming out of the Pentecostal/Charasmatic church, I joined an exclusice psalms (e.p) church, where I was told the reasons for singing unaccompanied psalms. I thought it sounded nice and safe, and so I preached e.p whenever I had the opportunity, giving the Scriptural reasons which I had been told.

Having now wrestled in prayer and Scripture study myself, (something I should have done before), I am not convinced that, as New Covenant believers, God would restrict His worship to Old Covenant Theology songs, and that from only one book.

To never sing the name "Jesus Christ" in worship, (please don't give me the public vs. private worship thing) doesn't make sense to me. To never sing New Covenant reality (as opposed to O.T shadow) songs such as, "It's no longer I that liveth, but Christ that liveth in me" doesn't make sense to me.

Having said that, and more to the point of my title, I love the Psalms!! I have dedicated the last 15 years of my life composing music to the Psalms, http://www.ministryofpsalms.com But my desire is to see more Christians sing them as they appear straight from the text, ( I use mainly NIV) without the restriction of rhyme and metre and in the language that my unsaved friends can understand; and utilising the God given blessing of musical instruments, (appropriately as I can).

I welcome any feedback.

Jason Coghill

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

One of the critiques of EP that I have never understood is this idea of the need to sing the English translation "Jesus" and how the Psalms do not speak openly and clearly of the Messiah and the Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity because they do not use the word "Jesus". Christ is present in every Psalm.

 

[baron]

Welcome to the board Jason.

Just too let you know you post did not highlite all the words in your website. Went to your page and listened to your music and I like what I listened too. Enjoyed your you tube video.

 

[fredtgreco]

One of the critiques of EP that I have never understood is this idea of the need to sing the English translation "Jesus" and how the Psalms do not speak openly and clearly of the Messiah and the Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity because they do not use the word "Jesus". Christ is present in every Psalm.

I have never understood the counter-argument that the OT form of the Psalms is not only sufficient, but necessary for New Covenant believers, when its proponents would never take that position on any other point of doctrine - including (specifically) all other elements of worship besides song.

 

[fredtgreco]

I mean preaching, prayer, music (since EP necessarily involves a movement away from musical accompaniment of the OT), day of worship (change of Sabbath), qualifications for leadership, form of worship gathering, etc. Basically the only OT form that is sufficient and necessary for the EPer is Psalmody. So I find it ironic that the one who "can't understand why we need to do this NT name of Jesus thing" insists on NT forms everywhere else.

 

[MW]

Discussion will certainly become bogged down if it is centred on the general themes of continuity and discontinuity. We must ask, What is required in accord with the regulative principle of worship. If God commands the Psalms and nothing else, then obviously divine wisdom teaches us that the Psalms are sufficient and the literal name of Jesus is not required to be sung (although I would point out that the Hebrew equivalent is found in all references to salvation). Hence discussion should be concerned with what God has or has not prescribed in His Word. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Blessings!

 

[etexas]

These pretzels are making me thirsty! .... Wait... oops... wrong thread sorry about that! Runs off............

 

[ChariotsofFire]

While Christ is present in the Psalms, He is only seen through the shadow of the OT. Christ is not as clearly seen as He is in the gospels. If Scripture would bind us to sing in the shadow of the OT, then I would gladly do so, but I don't believe this is what the Scriptures teach.

I love the Psalms, but I also love to sing of Christ in the full light of the NT. I believe Scripture allows us to sing both in Corporate and private worship.

 

[Tim]

For Christians today, the full light of the New Testament shines upon the Old Testament Psalms. When this is in mind, there is little worry that we are singing words that are shadowy in their content.

 

[Scott1]

Ephesians 5:19
19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

If psalms only are permitted in New Testament worship, what are the "hymns" and "spiritual songs" referred to?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Ephesians 5:19
19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

If psalms only are permitted in New Testament worship, what are the "hymns" and "spiritual songs" referred to?

"Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs" refer to three different types of Psalms.

 

[Scott1]

Backwoods Presbyterian
"Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs" refer to three different types of Psalms.

Can you explain this more fully?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Here is a link to an article that explains the exegesis fully. Also here is a link to quotations of a number of Puritans and other Reformed folk on the matter.

 

[Augusta]

While Christ is present in the Psalms, He is only seen through the shadow of the OT. Christ is not as clearly seen as He is in the gospels. If Scripture would bind us to sing in the shadow of the OT, then I would gladly do so, but I don't believe this is what the Scriptures teach.

I love the Psalms, but I also love to sing of Christ in the full light of the NT. I believe Scripture allows us to sing both in Corporate and private worship.

The OT is not shadowed to us anymore. It was veiled to Israel and still is to all who have not the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor. 3:14-18

14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

The archives are legion on this subject, as you can see browsing the EP sub forum. Two recent threads from each side of the question are:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f124/th...ing-uninspired-song-use-public-worship-46680/
and
http://www.puritanboard.com/f124/wh...onfine-song-public-worship-psalms-only-48481/

If there is any interest I can reopen either of these for posting.

 

[au5t1n]

I am still studying exclusive psalmody and have not come to a fixed conclusion on the matter, but as I have studied the issue, I have been inspired to learn several metrical psalms, mostly through YouTube videos of psalm-singing. I am shocked at the statements here to the effect that the Psalms contain no "New Testament reality," but only "Old covenant shadows." Several times in the last few days the Holy Spirit has moved me to sing Psalm 103 from the Scottish Metrical Psalter. Please read it below. It contains, I dare say, much more New Testament reality than many hymns, even great ones. Many hymns that contain the name "Jesus" are lacking in the depth of gospel truth that is present in this Psalm:

Psalm 103

A Psalm of David.

8,6,8,6

1O thou my soul, bless God the Lord;
and all that in me is
Be stirred up his holy name
to magnify and bless.

2Bless, O my soul, the Lord thy God,
and not forgetful be
Of all his gracious benefits
he hath bestow’d on thee.

3All thine iniquities who doth
most graciously forgive:
Who thy diseases all and pains
doth heal, and thee relieve.

4Who doth redeem thy life, that thou
to death may’st not go down;
Who thee with loving-kindness doth
and tender mercies crown:

5Who with abundance of good things
doth satisfy thy mouth;
So that, ev’n as the eagle’s age,
renewed is thy youth.

6God righteous judgment executes
for all oppressed ones.
7His ways to Moses, he his acts
made known to Isr’el’s sons.

8The Lord our God is merciful,
and he is gracious,
Long-suffering, and slow to wrath,
in mercy plenteous.

9He will not chide continually,
nor keep his anger still.
10With us he dealt not as we sinn’d,
nor did requite our ill.

11For as the heaven in its height
the earth surmounteth far;
So great to those that do him fear
his tender mercies are:

12As far as east is distant from
the west, so far hath he
From us removed, in his love,
all our iniquity.

13Such pity as a father hath
unto his children dear;
Like pity shews the Lord to such
as worship him in fear.

14For he remembers we are dust,
and he our frame well knows.
15Frail man, his days are like the grass,
as flow’r in field he grows:

16For over it the wind doth pass,
and it away is gone;
And of the place where once it was
it shall no more be known.

17But unto them that do him fear
God’s mercy never ends;
And to their children’s children still
his righteousness extends:

18To such as keep his covenant,
and mindful are alway
Of his most just commandements,
that they may them obey.

19The Lord prepared hath his throne
in heavens firm to stand;
And ev’ry thing that being hath
his kingdom doth command.

20O ye his angels, that excel
in strength, bless ye the Lord;
Ye who obey what he commands,
and hearken to his word.

21O bless and magnify the Lord,
ye glorious hosts of his;
Ye ministers, that do fulfil
whate’er his pleasure is.

22O bless the Lord, all ye his works,
wherewith the world is stor’d
In his dominions ev’ry where.
My soul, bless thou the Lord.

You can hear several stanzas of it here: [video=youtube;DIdaP8nIM74]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIdaP8nIM74[/video]

 

[jcoggers]

I am convinced there is a clear, unequivocal command that “thou shall not murder”. I am convinced there is a clear, unequivocal command that thou must “love thy neighbour as thyself”. I am convinced there is a clear, unequivocal command to sing Psalms. But neither I, nor the great majority of evangelical, God fearing, Word centred, reformed believers, (including Theologians and Pastors) are convinced that there is a clear, unequivocal command that when we worship the Lord Jesus Christ in song, that “thou must restrict thy words exclusively to the Old Covenant, and then exclusively from the book of Psalms.”

 

[gene_mingo]

But neither I, nor the great majority of evangelical, God fearing, Word centred, reformed believers, (including Theologians and Pastors) are convinced that there is a clear, unequivocal command that when we worship the Lord Jesus Christ in song, that “thou must restrict thy words exclusively to the Old Covenant, and then exclusively from the book of Psalms.”

It seems that you depart from the Regulative Principal of Worship with this statement.

 

[etexas]

But neither I, nor the great majority of evangelical, God fearing, Word centred, reformed believers, (including Theologians and Pastors) are convinced that there is a clear, unequivocal command that when we worship the Lord Jesus Christ in song, that “thou must restrict thy words exclusively to the Old Covenant, and then exclusively from the book of Psalms.”

It seems that you depart from the Regulative Principal of Worship with this statement.

Josh, how does he depart Brother, the statement as it stand WOULD include most Presbyterians. If you think he is wrong you include the PCA and the OPC (of which I notice you hold membership. I know and am friends with many good Godly OPC folk including Pastors who are not EP! Do then tell me. Are they "violating" RPW??? This is no attack, it is a simple question.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

I think Josh was pointing out the form of the argument is counter the RPW. If one holds to the regulative principle, the form of the argument should be to show a scriptural warrant for singing more than just the psalms.

 

[LawrenceU]

I think Josh was pointing out the form of the argument is counter the RPW. If one holds to the regulative principle, the form of the argument should be to show a scriptural warrant for singing more than just the psalms.

True, and that warrant from the Non - EP position is in Colossians 3:16. I know that is a simplistic reply. And, I know that this verse has been debated ad nauseam. Even with all of that God-fearing knowledgeable men disagree. Charity is needed on both accounts all to often. At times the debate reminds me a groups of boys on a playground who have argued back and forth until there is nothing left that hearing them say,
'Is too!'
'Is not!'
'Is too!'
'Is not!'

I'm not pointing to anyone in this discussion. Just pointing out that there will not be agreement on this issue this side of heaven.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Of course there is disagreement over whether there is such a warrant. I really was not asking for the non EP argument. Just trying to clarify what I thought Josh's objection was, and that the RPW requires making the case for warrant, not that Scripture doesn't forbid something. Because there is not agreement on the conclusion does not mean discussing the subject is useless or that we shouldn't. Otherwise we should deep six the Baptism forums.

I think Josh was pointing out the form of the argument is counter the RPW. If one holds to the regulative principle, the form of the argument should be to show a scriptural warrant for singing more than just the psalms.

True, and that warrant from the Non - EP position is in Colossians 3:16. I know that is a simplistic reply. And, I know that this verse has been debated ad nauseam. Even with all of that God-fearing knowledgeable men disagree. Charity is needed on both accounts all to often. At times the debate reminds me a groups of boys on a playground who have argued back and forth until there is nothing left that hearing them say,
'Is too!'
'Is not!'
'Is too!'
'Is not!'

I'm not pointing to anyone in this discussion. Just pointing out that there will not be agreement on this issue this side of heaven.

 

[LawrenceU]

Of course there is disagreement over whether there is such a warrant. I really was not asking for the non EP argument. Just trying to clarify what I thought Josh's objection was, and that the RPW requires making the case for warrant, not that Scripture doesn't forbid something. Because there is not agreement on the conclusion does not mean discussing the subject is useless or that we shouldn't. Otherwise we should deep six the Baptism forums.

I think Josh was pointing out the form of the argument is counter the RPW. If one holds to the regulative principle, the form of the argument should be to show a scriptural warrant for singing more than just the psalms.

True, and that warrant from the Non - EP position is in Colossians 3:16. I know that is a simplistic reply. And, I know that this verse has been debated ad nauseam. Even with all of that God-fearing knowledgeable men disagree. Charity is needed on both accounts all to often. At times the debate reminds me a groups of boys on a playground who have argued back and forth until there is nothing left that hearing them say,
'Is too!'
'Is not!'
'Is too!'
'Is not!'

I'm not pointing to anyone in this discussion. Just pointing out that there will not be agreement on this issue this side of heaven.

True. I wasn't trying to enter or further the debate. I was just pointing out that one cannot just toss out the RPW as the end all of the debate. The application of that rule is defined differently by the parties involved. I do however think that there are greater issues to be discussed, such as the trinity, the substitutionary atonement, the definition of justification, the omniscience of God, etc. In some circles issues such as EP deserve a lot more air time than they warrant. We have major assaults coming against Biblical Christianity today. We should train our guns in that direction most often.

 

[gene_mingo]

Thank You Chris,
It was the statement itself not the EP non-EP debate that I was addressing. I wasn't trying to claim that a non-EP position violated the RPW. I am sorry if that is how my statement came across. I realize that this subject can and often does become very heated when discussed and was trying to be very cautious with my statement. Next time I will try to be more clear as to what I am addressing.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Not a problem Josh; as far as heat, that is why this subforum is "moderated".

Thank You Chris,
It was the statement itself not the EP non-EP debate that I was addressing. I wasn't trying to claim that a non-EP position violated the RPW. I am sorry if that is how my statement came across. I realize that this subject can and often does become very heated when discussed and was trying to be very cautious with my statement. Next time I will try to be more clear as to what I am addressing.

 

[etexas]

But neither I, nor the great majority of evangelical, God fearing, Word centred, reformed believers, (including Theologians and Pastors) are convinced that there is a clear, unequivocal command that when we worship the Lord Jesus Christ in song, that “thou must restrict thy words exclusively to the Old Covenant, and then exclusively from the book of Psalms.”

It seems that you depart from the Regulative Principal of Worship with this statement.

I sent a PM apology!However I wish to give an open one as well. Josh, Brother! Mea Culpa! I misread your POST! I felt you were having a conflicted view with your Branch of the Presbyterian Church. Do indeed forgive me! I see that you were not making your statement as such. Only downside to a board is "tone" and "flow"..... can be muddled such was my case. Do, please accept my apology! Yours in Jesus Christ Our Lord.

 

[jcoggers]

But neither I, nor the great majority of evangelical, God fearing, Word centred, reformed believers, (including Theologians and Pastors) are convinced that there is a clear, unequivocal command that when we worship the Lord Jesus Christ in song, that “thou must restrict thy words exclusively to the Old Covenant, and then exclusively from the book of Psalms.”

It seems that you depart from the Regulative Principal of Worship with this statement.

"Regulative Principle"...??? Far better to use the term "Biblical Principle". Regarding worship, the Lord has convicted and comforted me with John 4:23,24. Worship must be Holy Spirit led, (as opposed to based on physical locale or aids); and it must be according to truth. What is truth? Thy Word is truth.

Therefore when a God fearing, Christ loving saint is in church singing a biblical song straight from the text such as:
"I will praise you O LORD. Although you were angry with me,
your anger has turned away, and you have comforted me."

He is worshipping in spirit and truth, is he not? It sadens me that some Ep's would still say this is not true worship! Why? because the words are from Isaiah and not the Psalms.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Terms are not as important as long as we understand the principle. The regulative principle is simply a 20th century term for that biblical principle governing the worship of God recovered at the Reformation.
What is the Regulative Principle of Worship - Blogs - The PuritanBoard

 

[R Harris]

The archives are legion on this subject, as you can see browsing the EP sub forum. Two recent threads from each side of the question are:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f124/th...ing-uninspired-song-use-public-worship-46680/
and
http://www.puritanboard.com/f124/wh...onfine-song-public-worship-psalms-only-48481/

If there is any interest I can reopen either of these for posting.

Chris is right; this subject has been discussed more times that I care to count, but it is no different than many objections you hear from non-believers regarding the Gospel. Even though you have heard them 1000 times, it is assured that you will hear them 1001, 1002, and so on.

To recap:

(1) There is absolutely no command in the NT to compose new hymns for worship. "Singing" and "composing" are two entirely different things. Just because I sing something obviously does not mean that I also composed it.
I still wait for someone to show me a conclusive passage where (a) the command exists, and (b) what the qualifications are for someone to write a hymn to be used in the Lord's worship. I find it interesting that of the spiritual gifts discussed in the NT, "hymn writing" is not one of them.

G.I. Williamson said it best. If we were meant to have a New Testament Book of Psalms, then the Apostles obviously never got the message, since no such book exists.

(2) The terms "Psalms, Hymns, and Songs." Tony Cowley and I published a pamphlet back in 1993 that demonstrates that all three of these terms appear in many places in the Septuagint. In fact, all three terms occur in the sub-title to Psalm 76! Look it up in the Septuagint if you don't believe me. The Greek of these words is exactly the same that Paul uses in Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19.

Now, if I am a Colossian or Ephesian in 55 AD, and I see all of these terms in my Septuagint, and Paul is telling me to sing psalms, hymns, and songs - what am I supposed to think? That I also need to be singing "Amazing Grace" (1779, 1700 years after I have departed), "Just as I am" (1836), or "How Great Thou Art" (1950)?

It never ceases to amaze me how people go to any lengths to deny the historical context here.


3. As stated regarding the name "Jesus Christ," we must remember that there is a corresponding Hebrew name - Yeshua Hamashiah (sp?). Both these first and last names, and variants of those names, occur in numerous places in the Psalms - not to mention the many, many passages that the NT authors apply directly to Jesus (e.g. Psalm 22, Psalm 69, etc.). This is a peculiar objection, to say the least.

I hope that these three points are helpful.

 

[au5t1n]

I hope that these three points are helpful.

They were helpful for me, thank you.