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Getting kicked out of hearth and home isn't a picnic.
Again, point taken. But it isn't as though Williams was a hapless dissenter -- he was just as fanatical about his beliefs as the elders of Massachusetts Bay and, had he left of his own accord (with better grace, I might add), the situation that he found himself in would never have occurred.
I can identify with what he writes about "internet Calvinists." Some of the most vitriolic and ugly fights on the net take place with, between, or at the hands of Calvinists. This is to our shame. Some of the most "Christian" men of God I know are either Arminian or Pentecostal. Do I believe that they are wrong? Duh! But, it embarrasses me when they evidence the fruit of the Spirit so much more evidently than some of us more theologically correct types. And, no, I'm not talking about the "nice" Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, or Jew. I'm speaking of people in Christian churches who read the same book, pray to the same God, depend upon the same Jesus for their standing with God, and look forward to his return. It shames us that our more correct theology is not matched at times by verbal maturity in what we say to other folks (and to each other!) on the internet. I wouldn't phrase it exactly like Patton does, but find much to nod my head to in his description . . . sadly.
I think Calvinists often forget we're ultimately on the same team with Arminians, Pentecostals, etc. They may be wrong in their theology on some points and this leads to broader problems that should be addressed, but in the final analysis they are indeed brothers and sisters. I would never speak to my familial brother in the vitriolic way some Calvinists speak to non-Calvinists...
How about drug an arminian day then? Drugs often work in"re-education programs"
I can identify with what he writes about "internet Calvinists." Some of the most vitriolic and ugly fights on the net take place with, between, or at the hands of Calvinists. This is to our shame. Some of the most "Christian" men of God I know are either Arminian or Pentecostal. Do I believe that they are wrong? Duh! But, it embarrasses me when they evidence the fruit of the Spirit so much more evidently than some of us more theologically correct types. And, no, I'm not talking about the "nice" Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, or Jew. I'm speaking of people in Christian churches who read the same book, pray to the same God, depend upon the same Jesus for their standing with God, and look forward to his return. It shames us that our more correct theology is not matched at times by verbal maturity in what we say to other folks (and to each other!) on the internet. I wouldn't phrase it exactly like Patton does, but find much to nod my head to in his description . . . sadly.
I think Calvinists often forget we're ultimately on the same team with Arminians, Pentecostals, etc. They may be wrong in their theology on some points and this leads to broader problems that should be addressed, but in the final analysis they are indeed brothers and sisters. I would never speak to my familial brother in the vitriolic way some Calvinists speak to non-Calvinists...
Both Quotes very very true. And this is from someone coming from the background of someone who used to fight all day, tooth and nail against the DOG, even though all my boys that I fellowship with except for a few were reformed. But now by God's Grace and Him allowing me to pray and study the matter I def lean wayyyyyyy more towards the DOG, even though I'm not fully there yet, there's still some hard pills for me to swallow.
But some things that I have noticed is not all, but some Calvinist, would view those who aren't reformed, as people who have no idea what there talking about, and can't be right about possibly anything they say, and it seemed like the Calvinist thought intellectually he was on a much higher ladder then the Armeniest. Even now that I'm basically reformed, I still see Calvinist mock Armeniest, mock the way an Armeniest must pray and present The Gospel. Which I disagree with, because even when I was an Armeniest I didn't pray nor present The Gospel the way Calvinist depicted, so it came off as prideful, and kind of poking fun to me, kind of a way to make the Armeniest look dumb and stupid to the Calvinist community. That's why I think alot of Calvinist can think that way of the Armeniest. So if an Armeniest ran into a Calvinist that thought like that, because of what they've heard someone teach about and Armeniest, or watched in a video, then he would automatically place that depiction on him, which if an Armeniest doesn't hold to that, (Like I didn't) it can cause him to feel very disrespected, because the reformed can have a pre-conceived notion of him that's completely false, and mis-understood.
But I don't rule out the fact that bad theology has to be corrected, that is a MUST, but the way you do it, is also a BIG deal, it has to be done in Love. I've had alot of friends that were Calvinist, and when I didn't hold to the DOG, it was like I and a few of my other brothers who didn't hold to that were ex-communicated from them, and it hurt us so bad, even to the point where some cried, because these were brothers we've known and were in ministry with for years. But by the Grace of GOD, he used a brother I know named Rashad, who is very sound in his theology and doctrine, to answer all my questions and challenges to the DOG. He never forced it on me, he would ask me questions from time to time, and when I started really searching it out, praying and studying it myself, he was (And still is) Very patient with me to answer any and all my questions, in love and sincerity, and that was BIG help. Some other people I knew who were reformed (Exception for some) it seemed like they wanted nothing to do with me at all...like I was a castaway or something, and I see others who come at Armeniest, like there just completely stupid..and don't know anything about the bible at all. Trust me they can sense that, and it can actually turn them away from adhearing to the DOG, then turn them towards it, that's why alot of Arminiest label some who are reformed as prideful. Armeniest aren't off the hook though, I recently ran into one, and they seemed to be so prideful, and absolutely hated all Calvinist, which I thought was horrible, the response that they gave to the reformed dripped with pride..so the newely reformed arent the only ones, it's some Armeniest out there, that just view Calvinist as legalistic jerks who have a John Calvin and C.H Spurgeon shrine in the Corner of there room, which my friend is absolutely not true. It was the genuine Love and patience, of a brother of mine that GOD used as just one of many means, to actually open me up more to the DOG.
So wait... do you guys mean to say that Arminianism is something that you can't beat out of people?
I have a couple in my basement that, I think, are starting to turn...
I think Calvinists often forget we're ultimately on the same team with Arminians, Pentecostals, etc. They may be wrong in their theology on some points and this leads to broader problems that should be addressed, but in the final analysis they are indeed brothers and sisters. I would never speak to my familial brother in the vitriolic way some Calvinists speak to non-Calvinists...
Both Quotes very very true. And this is from someone coming from the background of someone who used to fight all day, tooth and nail against the DOG, even though all my boys that I fellowship with except for a few were reformed. But now by God's Grace and Him allowing me to pray and study the matter I def lean wayyyyyyy more towards the DOG, even though I'm not fully there yet, there's still some hard pills for me to swallow.
But some things that I have noticed is not all, but some Calvinist, would view those who aren't reformed, as people who have no idea what there talking about, and can't be right about possibly anything they say, and it seemed like the Calvinist thought intellectually he was on a much higher ladder then the Armeniest. Even now that I'm basically reformed, I still see Calvinist mock Armeniest, mock the way an Armeniest must pray and present The Gospel. Which I disagree with, because even when I was an Armeniest I didn't pray nor present The Gospel the way Calvinist depicted, so it came off as prideful, and kind of poking fun to me, kind of a way to make the Armeniest look dumb and stupid to the Calvinist community. That's why I think alot of Calvinist can think that way of the Armeniest. So if an Armeniest ran into a Calvinist that thought like that, because of what they've heard someone teach about and Armeniest, or watched in a video, then he would automatically place that depiction on him, which if an Armeniest doesn't hold to that, (Like I didn't) it can cause him to feel very disrespected, because the reformed can have a pre-conceived notion of him that's completely false, and mis-understood.
But I don't rule out the fact that bad theology has to be corrected, that is a MUST, but the way you do it, is also a BIG deal, it has to be done in Love. I've had alot of friends that were Calvinist, and when I didn't hold to the DOG, it was like I and a few of my other brothers who didn't hold to that were ex-communicated from them, and it hurt us so bad, even to the point where some cried, because these were brothers we've known and were in ministry with for years. But by the Grace of GOD, he used a brother I know named Rashad, who is very sound in his theology and doctrine, to answer all my questions and challenges to the DOG. He never forced it on me, he would ask me questions from time to time, and when I started really searching it out, praying and studying it myself, he was (And still is) Very patient with me to answer any and all my questions, in love and sincerity, and that was BIG help. Some other people I knew who were reformed (Exception for some) it seemed like they wanted nothing to do with me at all...like I was a castaway or something, and I see others who come at Armeniest, like there just completely stupid..and don't know anything about the bible at all. Trust me they can sense that, and it can actually turn them away from adhearing to the DOG, then turn them towards it, that's why alot of Arminiest label some who are reformed as prideful. Armeniest aren't off the hook though, I recently ran into one, and they seemed to be so prideful, and absolutely hated all Calvinist, which I thought was horrible, the response that they gave to the reformed dripped with pride..so the newely reformed arent the only ones, it's some Armeniest out there, that just view Calvinist as legalistic jerks who have a John Calvin and C.H Spurgeon shrine in the Corner of there room, which my friend is absolutely not true. It was the genuine Love and patience, of a brother of mine that GOD used as just one of many means, to actually open me up more to the DOG.
Again, I was taught that Calvinists were those people who rejected the Holy Spirit and Worshiped the Bible instead of worshipping Jesus. They had a Christianity that fell short by Twelve inches, the distance between the heart and the head. My Pastor was ANTI-Calvinist and had not problem stating it from the pulpit. Though he never said the name we all knew who he was talking about when he preached against those who are into dead doctrine and who are void of the Spirit. He would say they are mean spirited, carnal, cold, callous, full of head knowledge. He would use the scripture "you search the scriptures to find life, and the speak of me but you will not come to me that you may have life" (paraphrased), you know the verse.
But my pastor had no problem accepting the "Pastor of the Year Award" from one of the Christian Education Institutions that mostly (and I say mostly not all the way) held to a calvinistic position.
BUT, In spite of the downfalls and Theological Train Wrecks that are so prominent within the Arminian Circles, there still are many Arminian Preachers who have preached with power the Cross of Christ. We have some Great Men of God in that Camp so I am not ready to cast them all aside as not knowing anything.
Ah, I miss the old days when we were all in our ships travelling to the New World and trying to make of ourselves an example to other Christians, rather than just grousing at them all the time. There is much to be said for the differences between hurtful fanaticism and constructive zeal. Perhaps much of the difference between modern Reformed Protestants and the old 16th and 17th-century Reformers has to do with the fact that many of us in America (with the unfortunate exceptions, of course) haven't suffered persecution to the extent that they did; also, the Faith was new, raw, and ground-breaking -- now man has had a chance to make it seem stale and pedantic. Also, in the good old days, everyone who was interested in theology was fiery and, often enough, rather rude. They would have been quite flabbergasted at the delicate sensibilities of our age.
Of course, arrogance is another thing entirely and should be cut down at all times as a thing hateful to the Lord.
Sorry, those "good ol' days' didn't exist.
The Quakers were persecuted and Roger Williams was driven out of his area by calvinists. "Christianity" overall is getting more and more tolerant these days as opposed to "the good ol' days"
Arminians and Pentecostals??? They are the same...just as they are Pelagian...S-I-N-N-E-R-S...lost in their UNBELIEF...
What is it that they BELIEVE that saves them? What makes them SAVED?
If you accept them as "bretheren", then you are in thought process that "they are believers going to heaven"...ARE YOU SURE about that???
Is it better to accept a false Christ as your cousin in faith, or is it better that your "BROTHER" know the REAL Christ?
The heart is deceitful above all things...who can KNOW it? Stop whimping out because you need some one on this planet to love you...and appreciate you, as if you were worth it...
Proclaim the True Christ...'for many will come in MY Name saying..." and they will say it well. Where do you draw the line???
What's next? Islam is Christianity, just under a different name?? We all worship the same Christ but just in different ways and understandings??? Sure there will be some MINOR variations...BUT what is MINOR???
I'm getting extremely worried about what is construde as Christianity and what IS Christianity...
Unbelievers ARE NOT our BROTHERS!!!
Figure out what a believer is, then you can embrace them as your KINDRED...
Arminians and Pentecostals??? They are the same...just as they are Pelagian...S-I-N-N-E-R-S...lost in their UNBELIEF...
What is it that they BELIEVE that saves them? What makes them SAVED?
If you accept them as "bretheren", then you are in thought process that "they are believers going to heaven"...ARE YOU SURE about that???
Is it better to accept a false Christ as your cousin in faith, or is it better that your "BROTHER" know the REAL Christ?
The heart is deceitful above all things...who can KNOW it? Stop whimping out because you need some one on this planet to love you...and appreciate you, as if you were worth it...
Proclaim the True Christ...'for many will come in MY Name saying..." and they will say it well. Where do you draw the line???
What's next? Islam is Christianity, just under a different name?? We all worship the same Christ but just in different ways and understandings??? Sure there will be some MINOR variations...BUT what is MINOR???
I'm getting extremely worried about what is construde as Christianity and what IS Christianity...
Unbelievers ARE NOT our BROTHERS!!!
Figure out what a believer is, then you can embrace them as your KINDRED...
That was Really funny!,Thanks so much for posting it!!
Arminians and Pentecostals??? They are the same...just as they are Pelagian...S-I-N-N-E-R-S...lost in their UNBELIEF...
What is it that they BELIEVE that saves them? What makes them SAVED?
If you accept them as "bretheren", then you are in thought process that "they are believers going to heaven"...ARE YOU SURE about that???
Is it better to accept a false Christ as your cousin in faith, or is it better that your "BROTHER" know the REAL Christ?
The heart is deceitful above all things...who can KNOW it? Stop whimping out because you need some one on this planet to love you...and appreciate you, as if you were worth it...
Proclaim the True Christ...'for many will come in MY Name saying..." and they will say it well. Where do you draw the line???
What's next? Islam is Christianity, just under a different name?? We all worship the same Christ but just in different ways and understandings??? Sure there will be some MINOR variations...BUT what is MINOR???
I'm getting extremely worried about what is construde as Christianity and what IS Christianity...
Unbelievers ARE NOT our BROTHERS!!!
Figure out what a believer is, then you can embrace them as your KINDRED...