NIP - Nursing in Public
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Obi Wan Kenobi
Whoa! Now that's a cross-cultural experience!
In S. California the Hispanic women commonly breast feed in public without covering. They simply take the top down and feed. It took me by surprise, and concerned me, the first few times. But somehow it was different than a woman running around topless, or too exposed. Now, here in the U.P., there are only about 2 weeks when any woman would dare bare herself, period. Brrrrr.
In S. California the Hispanic women commonly breast feed in public without covering. They simply take the top down and feed. It took me by surprise, and concerned me, the first few times. But somehow it was different than a woman running around topless, or too exposed. Now, here in the U.P., there are only about 2 weeks when any woman would dare bare herself, period. Brrrrr.
nicnap
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
You didn't
I'm saying that it happens often to nursing mothers. Nursing mothers have been asked to leave restaurants and airplanes (in the past two years) because they needed to feed their child. Some were covered with a blanket and others were not, but still not showing breast. One lady was not even permitted to nurse in a DRESSING ROOM of a lingerie store because her breastmilk was considered "bodily fluid" that could "contaminate" the dressing rooms.
-----Added 12/10/2008 at 01:11:59 EST-----
gravity and age....wonderful things to look forward to...
this reminds me of a song we used to sing
It is not a notion, nor is it a norm, it is a fact. Just like it is not a notion, but a fact that (for example) smoking is bad for you. True, there are people who smoke and make it to a hundred years, but that does not mean that it is a wise thing to start smoking 'cause the guy next door smoked for almost a century. The same thing goes for breastfeeding. True, there are many children that turn out great when having been fed out of a bottle - I and my siblings are examples of that too. But that does not mean that, if a mother can breastfeed her child, she should not do so, just because the guy next door turned out great without it - her child will very probably turn out much better if it would be breastfed, than if it would not.
Breastfeeding is not a universal cure for children's diseases, but it will help. A child with the wrong genes will turn out sickly whether he is breastfed or not, but if he is not breastfed, it is proven to be likely that he will turn out the better for it. The other way round, a child with perfect genes will turn out wonderful on formula, but will turn out even better with breastfeeding.
Therefore, a mother that has the choice between breastfeeding and formula, should at least heavily lean in favor of breastfeeding.
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nicnap
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
You didn't
I'm saying that it happens often to nursing mothers. Nursing mothers have been asked to leave restaurants and airplanes (in the past two years) because they needed to feed their child. Some were covered with a blanket and others were not, but still not showing breast. One lady was not even permitted to nurse in a DRESSING ROOM of a lingerie store because her breastmilk was considered "bodily fluid" that could "contaminate" the dressing rooms.
-----Added 12/10/2008 at 01:11:59 EST-----
gravity and age....wonderful things to look forward to...
this reminds me of a song we used to sing
tie 'em in a bow... (if that was inappropriate I'll remove it) Just couldn't pass it up.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
I've been blessed to have received very minimal discrimination compared to some. And unfortunately, some of the thoughts common in today's US society along with the difficulties that nursing brings with it all on it's own, are why so many women do not nurse or quit within weeks of birth.
Also why, when studying midwifery, my midwife requested that I strongly consider becoming a lactation consultant (more schooling required) for our area. There are many presumptions and little support.
nicnap
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
My point, Sir, was to say that it is not always the case. It is indeed a norm. It is a FACT that some women breastfeed. It is a FACT that some do not. It is the NORM that those who are breastfed are healthier, but it is not so in every case.
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
Jamal brings up another point. What do you do if you're a missionary in an area with lots of AIDS and other diseases? And it's customary for women to breast feed any kid who's hungry? She's sure she's doing you a favor by picking up your kid when you're in the other room. You come out and your maid or a neighbor woman is suckling him.
AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
I would have to concur with Tim. There are two sides to this issue for me:
1) I totally understand and agree with the reality of breastfeeding and its necessity in public; likewise, I understand that many babies won't allow a blanket over them, etc. I see and agree with your many insightful points, Ladyflynt.
But 2) I am a young man who is fascinated by the beauty of the female body. Still, I flee situations that may be a stumbling block and struggle in the fight to maintain a good conscience and pure mind. There are times when I will walk into a room or turn a corner and see a woman free-boobin' it as they are breastfeeding (though certainly not at church) and there is no way to not have the image of a woman's breast brought to mind. I mean, there one is, right in front of me! ...More often than not it doesn't bother me because I just bring my mind back to Christ. But there are times when I am weak that a woman's body can bring back old sexual thoughts and ideas from p0rnography. (I.E. seeing a child at a woman's breast would not make me think, "Wow, that is sure a precious moment of bonding" but rather, "lucky kid!" ) But please don't get me wrong--I am not a raving pervert. I am just very aware of my weaknesses.
Thus, when I have a wife and child (Lord willing) I hope that my child will allow a cover. If not, hopefully my wife can breastfeed discretely. Regardless, I want to avoid any situation where it may be a stumbling block to others since I know how much of one it can be for some people.
1) I totally understand and agree with the reality of breastfeeding and its necessity in public; likewise, I understand that many babies won't allow a blanket over them, etc. I see and agree with your many insightful points, Ladyflynt.
But 2) I am a young man who is fascinated by the beauty of the female body. Still, I flee situations that may be a stumbling block and struggle in the fight to maintain a good conscience and pure mind. There are times when I will walk into a room or turn a corner and see a woman free-boobin' it as they are breastfeeding (though certainly not at church) and there is no way to not have the image of a woman's breast brought to mind. I mean, there one is, right in front of me! ...More often than not it doesn't bother me because I just bring my mind back to Christ. But there are times when I am weak that a woman's body can bring back old sexual thoughts and ideas from p0rnography. (I.E. seeing a child at a woman's breast would not make me think, "Wow, that is sure a precious moment of bonding" but rather, "lucky kid!"
) But please don't get me wrong--I am not a raving pervert. I am just very aware of my weaknesses. Thus, when I have a wife and child (Lord willing) I hope that my child will allow a cover. If not, hopefully my wife can breastfeed discretely. Regardless, I want to avoid any situation where it may be a stumbling block to others since I know how much of one it can be for some people.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Sounds like the deed is done...too late. You thank them, remove the child, and pray. I'm certain a tirade would not benefit anyone in the matter.
-----Added 12/10/2008 at 01:54:20 EST-----
Thank you for this post and thank you for being willing to look at both sides.I would have to concur with Tim. There are two sides to this issue for me:
1) I totally understand and agree with the reality of breastfeeding and its necessity in public; likewise, I understand that many babies won't allow a blanket over them, etc. I see and agree with your many insightful points, Ladyflynt.
But 2) I am a young man who is fascinated by the beauty of the female body. Still, I flee situations that may be a stumbling block and struggle in the fight to maintain a good conscience and pure mind. There are times when I will walk into a room or turn a corner and see a woman free-boobin' it as they are breastfeeding (though certainly not at church) and there is no way to not have the image of a woman's breast brought to mind. I mean, there one is, right in front of me! ...More often than not it doesn't bother me because I just bring my mind back to Christ. But there are times when I am weak that a woman's body can bring back old sexual thoughts and ideas from p0rnography. (I.E. seeing a child at a woman's breast would not make me think, "Wow, that is sure a precious moment of bonding" but rather, "lucky kid!"
Thus, when I have a wife and child (Lord willing) I hope that my child will allow a cover. If not, hopefully my wife can breastfeed discretely. Regardless, I want to avoid any situation where it may be a stumbling block to others since I know how much of one it can be for some people.
btw, for those that may want to know: I have nursed in service (both with a blanket when able and without when not). I currently leave the sanctuary due to a babe that is noisy and not attentive to his feeding. I've also gauged situations. I make my choice based on that, because the reality is I don't want to be the cause of conflict. However, when in a very public place with strangers (restaurant or mall), I will simply sit and nurse as discreetly as possibly (I'm not a raving, in your face, haul it all out in the open to declare my stance person). I would presume a person is being well meaning if they offered me a blanket or another room to nurse in the FIRST time and they came off that way. If persistent, I'm discreet, then I would be offended that the person is making a scene over it.
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I did not mean that we are perfect in our minds, but blaming Eve did not work for Adam and it will not work for you.
Not everyone is wired like you Boliver. It is not a cop out. Some have allowed such sin into their lives during youth that certain thought patterns are inevitable during certain times. As a chaplain in the military you will need to become more understanding.
I personally wouldn't want another man to see my nakedness. My wife's breasts are mine to see and mine alone.... as much as possible. That is if I was still married.
Edit addition for clarification.
Let me clarify the as much as possible thing... I meant to communicate that a wife's and mans nakedness is to be seen between them as the situations go. Doctors need to examine and sometimes there are other situations where a persons nakedness may be revealed that is unavoidable.
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Romans922
Puritan Board Professor
I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying the woman breastfeeding is a sinner, and all men are sinners. There are clear commands in Scripture. We must all be modest, we must all flee from sin.
If you notice what I said, I did not blame Eve. I called her to do her part (fulfill her responsibilities). And I called Adam too, to fulfill his responsibilities.
You cannot put the whole situation on the man, and you cannot put the whole situation on the woman. It is both/and.
If you notice what I said, I did not blame Eve. I called her to do her part (fulfill her responsibilities). And I called Adam too, to fulfill his responsibilities.
You cannot put the whole situation on the man, and you cannot put the whole situation on the woman. It is both/and.
I have just spent half an hour trying to find any negative effects of breastfeeding on young children. Maybe you can find one case where it was proven that the child would have been better off without being breastfed, or a study which shows any negative effects on children? Quite frankly, I cannot. Therefore, it is a fact that the babe is equally well or better off when breastfed than when not, there being no known cases where it has had the opposite effect in the past.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
The only negatives I've known have had to do with deficiencies in the child or allergies to something the mother was eating (and yes, it can be a pain to do an elimination diet to figure those things out and to eat in accordance to the child's tolerances, but some mothers are willing to do it to ensure their child also reaps the benefits of breastmilk). The deficiencies include things like a genetic issue that prevents proper breakdown of proteins, etc...these children typically have problems on formula though as well and go through a lot to figure out what they can tolerate. But they are they exceptions and rarities.
Spinningplates2
Puritan Board Freshman
I still need to know what other "Modern" trends are going to be coming to the Church. If, as LadyFlynt says, that breast feeding became accepted/normal in the mid-1900's (I never noticed) what other things will soon be allowed? If the Puritans women would be shocked to "show an ankle" how did we get to the point where women could risk showing their breast in the middle of Worship? Yes, I know breastfeeding is natural and healthy.
So the question is what other modesty standards should we change?
So the question is what other modesty standards should we change?
nicnap
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Since you wish...the burden is on you. You have to do the impossible of proving the universal negative.
That being said, you should read what I responded to - you are still not understanding what I have said, and how I responded. It is not always the case that every child that is breastfed is better off. Please understand operative terms when they are used. It is NOT a fact that EVERY child is better off with breastfeeding. Some have been just as well off without being breast fed. Instead of talking past me, read what I have said.
That said, I am for breastfeeding, but it is not the "end all, be all" of the matter.
That being said, you should read what I responded to - you are still not understanding what I have said, and how I responded. It is not always the case that every child that is breastfed is better off. Please understand operative terms when they are used. It is NOT a fact that EVERY child is better off with breastfeeding. Some have been just as well off without being breast fed. Instead of talking past me, read what I have said.
That said, I am for breastfeeding, but it is not the "end all, be all" of the matter.
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
The Puritans were huge advocates of breast feeding. Read Gouge and you will see over 10 pages that cover why breast is better than animal milk or wet nurses. They were not prudes AT ALL about this!
I ask my wife NOT to cover, because I do not think that it is a modesty issue. As long as you are not flashing things about, our culture needs to come into conformity with the biblical data. The breast and child relationship is quite common in Scripture and given as a positive image- If it were so secretive and private, why would God use it so much in Scripture?
I like the current Michigan law- A woman can breastfeed a baby anywhere that a woman could bottle feed a baby.
Also, (tongue in cheek): I think that if a woman has to cover her baby when nursing, the other women should have to cover their babies when they use a bottle. Just to make it fair. The bottle does have a big nipple on the end, we wouldn't want to make a brother stumble because of his imagination!
I ask my wife NOT to cover, because I do not think that it is a modesty issue. As long as you are not flashing things about, our culture needs to come into conformity with the biblical data. The breast and child relationship is quite common in Scripture and given as a positive image- If it were so secretive and private, why would God use it so much in Scripture?
I like the current Michigan law- A woman can breastfeed a baby anywhere that a woman could bottle feed a baby.
Also, (tongue in cheek): I think that if a woman has to cover her baby when nursing, the other women should have to cover their babies when they use a bottle. Just to make it fair. The bottle does have a big nipple on the end, we wouldn't want to make a brother stumble because of his imagination!
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
You totally misread me.
Nursing became UNACCEPTED by the mid 1900s. NOT nursing in church is the NEW habit.
The Puritan women that "didn't show ankle", still opened up their jackets and pulled aside their chemises to nurse a child...and not in some private backroom as there wasn't much privacy to begin with.
And as stated above: the Puritans weren't the Prudes they are oftimes portrayed to be.
You responded to Pergamum's suggestion that breastfeeding was healthier for children, by saying that that was not always the case. Not healthier = unhealthier. You argued this by the fact that you yourself had not been breastfed, and that you turned out well. Fine, but that is no proof, as you do not quite know how you would have turned out if you had been.
As there is no study that is known to me, nor, apparently, to you, that shows that breastfeeding can be unhealthy for young children, I respectfully ask you why you would argue that breastfeeding is not in all cases healthy for children?
(P.S.: nicnap, if you make an other reply, you automatically carry the point. Though not convinced, I am sick of contending it. All, I hope, in a spirit of
?)
nicnap
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
You responded to Pergamum's suggestion that breastfeeding was healthier for children, by saying that that was not always the case. Not healthier = unhealthier. You argued this by the fact that you yourself had not been breastfed, and that you turned out well. Fine, but that is no proof, as you do not quite know how you would have turned out if you had been.
As there is no study that is known to me, nor, apparently, to you, that shows that breastfeeding can be unhealthy for young children, I respectfully ask you why you would argue that breastfeeding is not in all cases healthy for children?
(P.S.: nicnap, if you make an other reply, you automatically carry the point. Though not convinced, I am sick of contending it. All, I hope, in a spirit of
Drat...you edited your post as I was typing mine. I was simply going to concede, as I too do not feel like contending it any longer.
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
It is a cop out to blame someone else for their sins. If I choose to think lustfully it is my fault. It is not anyone else's fault. I cannot tell God, "the devil made me do it" or "well even you had not blessed her physically...."
It just does not fly.
-----Added 12/10/2008 at 03:46:57 EST-----
I thought about this situation the entire ride home from work today and some of the thought patterns stated here are really blowing my mind.
It is the same thing as saying that it was the young lady's fault that she was raped because of what she wore. It was not her fault at all.
Also LadyFlynt was making the point a while back that society causes our reactions to nudity and I agree. To prove my point, think of your mom, sister, or even grandma buck naked. Isn't too pleasing is it? Why? because society tells us that it is wrong to be attracted to our family members. So if I can program my brain to not be sexually aroused when seeing certain women, I can program my brain to control my thoughts about other women as well.
AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
...When was anyone else blamed for sins?
-----Added 12/10/2008 at 03:49:53 EST-----
So I can just reprogram all of the areas I struggle with and be perfect... who knew it was so easy?
-----Added 12/10/2008 at 03:49:53 EST-----
So I can just reprogram all of the areas I struggle with and be perfect... who knew it was so easy?
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