Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.
The PCUSA church I went to when I was a kid recites it every Sunday.
Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries.
Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries.
the "vain repetitions" that Christ speaks of certainly can't be directed towards His prayer. I would not call anything that our Lord teaches to be "vain."
Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.
Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries.
the "vain repetitions" that Christ speaks of certainly can't be directed towards His prayer. I would not call anything that our Lord teaches to be "vain."
Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.
I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.
I do not think that the RPW prohibits it, so I am not opposed to it.
Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.
I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.
It could be looked at that way but on the other hand, I don't think He had babbling sounds in mind when He instructed us on the Prayer but rather that when the hypocrites pray(using His words) they attempt to impress those around them by using a large quantity of words and most importantly those words do not come from the heart but become religious repetitions and therefore to God are meaningless. So again in my opinion I believe that reciting the Lord's Prayer verbatim and not seeing it soley for its model of prayer it has become vain and repetitious, heartless, robotic and religious hence meaningless.
Roldan,
Are the angels being vain and repetitive who hover around God's throne and repeat "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. The earth is filled with his glory."
Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.
I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.
It could be looked at that way but on the other hand, I don't think He had babbling sounds in mind when He instructed us on the Prayer but rather that when the hypocrites pray(using His words) they attempt to impress those around them by using a large quantity of words and most importantly those words do not come from the heart but become religious repetitions and therefore to God are meaningless. So again in my opinion I believe that reciting the Lord's Prayer verbatim and not seeing it soley for its model of prayer it has become vain and repetitious, heartless, robotic and religious hence meaningless.
I would respectfully disagree with you here. I think the Greek text points more to what I have described in my post.
Thankfully there is room in Christ's kingdom for such differences
Of course the real question should be what formulation do you use?
debts, and debtors
sins, and sinners
or
trespasses and trespasses against us
I'm all for knowing greek and all that but you don't have to know greek to consider the whole context of the passage. The burden is on you to prove that when Christ was referring to the Scribes and Pharisees aka hypocrites they were speaking in some type of meaningless speech similar to the charasmatic movement.
It is also worth noting that the end of the prayer in Matthew is absent from the earliest manuscripts. Matthew 6:13 should end with "deliver us from evil". Much like the "end" of Mark's Gospel.
"...for Yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever". While true is not found until the 5th or 6th century.
Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.
Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.
Curt,
Do you sing certain hymns frequently at your church? If so, is that a "vain repetition"? I think not.
The book of Psalms is a collection of liturgical prayers, hymns, medetations, etc. In other words, God intended that such divine odes would be recited by His people throughout the ages. Also consider the fact that Christ sang a collection of these Psalms with His disciples; was this vain repetition? I think not.
As such, praying the Lord's Prayer as a liturgical device is nothing short of biblical, and enriches the worship service.
Anything man does can be "empty words"; whether he makes it up on the spot, or whether it's written on a piece of paper for him to read. God wrote a bunch of prayers down for us to read: the Psalms. To argue against liturgical prayers is (to me) fairly short-sighted, and will inevitably lead to hypocrisy, due to the repetition of hymns we sing, and the fact that we're not spontaneously singing them.
Also, the recitation of the Lord's Prayer is not a Presbyterian tradition: it is a universal, long-established custom, with a strong bibilcal and theological justification. The burden of proof would rest with anyone wishing not to recite it.
Cheers,
Adam
I'm all for knowing greek and all that but you don't have to know greek to consider the whole context of the passage. The burden is on you to prove that when Christ was referring to the Scribes and Pharisees aka hypocrites they were speaking in some type of meaningless speech similar to the charasmatic movement.
Let me lighten my burden a bit then...
The immediate context is clearly NOT referring to the Scribe and Pharisees...
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Mat 6:7)
The "tongues" of the charismatic circles is very similar to Hindu practices...
In the Kundalini (serpent power) practices they speak in this same kind of "tongues"
Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship, is by God required of all men: and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of His Spirit, according to His will, with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance; and, if vocal, in a known tongue.
Q. 187. How is the Lord’s Prayer to be used?
A. The Lord’s Prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make other prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.
Adam, your comparing apples to oranges.
And Presbyterian tradition or not its still tradition NOT based on a scriptural command, seems like everyone like to use the RPW card at convenience when it fits.
And lastly the burden has been proven from the context of the passage, the burden is on those who want to recite it to prove that Christ intended it to be recited verbatim and not only that but recited in worship, and not be argued from tradition but to be argued exegetically from the TEXT. The fact that its in the bible is not an argument and even opens up a variety of things to enter.
Prove your assertions exegetically from the text.
Jesus taught us: "When you pray say..."
The WCF 21.3 says:
Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship, is by God required of all men: and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of His Spirit, according to His will, with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance; and, if vocal, in a known tongue.
Therefore, when we pray in worship, it is NOT against the RPW to pray the Lord's prayer.
Christ taught us to say these words when we pray (yes, it is also a model for all prayers, but He commanded that these words be said).
Further, the WLC says:
Q. 187. How is the Lord’s Prayer to be used?
A. The Lord’s Prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make other prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.
There is no prohibition in the Confession against using the Lord's prayer in worship. Those who claim it is contrary to the RPW bear the burden of proof and argue against the Confession.
Jesus taught us: "When you pray say..."
The WCF 21.3 says:
Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship, is by God required of all men: and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of His Spirit, according to His will, with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance; and, if vocal, in a known tongue.
Therefore, when we pray in worship, it is NOT against the RPW to pray the Lord's prayer.
So then we could also incorporate in our worship all the sound Roman Catholic prayers that they use in their worship since it fits the WCF definition of prayer or how your using it anyways, right?
This is where we would disagree, Christ commanded no such thing. He says to "in this manner therefore pray" NKJV or "Pray then like this" ESV "pray then in this way" ""This, then, is how you should pray" NIV
This is the meaning in the greek
ESV
And he said to them, "When you pray, say:
NIV
He said to them, "When you pray, say:
NKJV
So He said to them, “When you pray, say:
KJV
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,
1550 Stephanus New Testament
lego: to say (Strong's # 3004)
1881 Westcott-Hort
lego
Further, the WLC says:
Q. 187. How is the Lord’s Prayer to be used?
A. The Lord’s Prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make other prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.
There is no prohibition in the Confession against using the Lord's prayer in worship. Those who claim it is contrary to the RPW bear the burden of proof and argue against the Confession.
WHere is their exegetical support for using it as a prayer?
BTW I'm just using the RPW argument for those who are strict RPWers
Actually He is equating them as the same and He still is referring to the use of MANY words as opposed to unintelligable(sic) words.