Recitation of the Lord's Prayer

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cih1355

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Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.
 
Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.

Yes, its common. And even though we know that in Christ teaching us how to pray he gave us that Lord's Prayer outline, we still insist on reciting it verbatim as if that was His intent. Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries. We recite it at the Church I attend in spanish but I refrain because of my position, not that its bad in and of itself to recite it verbatim but why would I do it if I don't agree, that would be going against my conscience and I'm just not like that.

My advice to you brother or sis would be just to learn from the content of the Prayer and incorporate its principles into your prayer life. :2cents:
 
It is also worth noting that the end of the prayer in Matthew is absent from the earliest manuscripts. Matthew 6:13 should end with "deliver us from evil". Much like the "end" of Mark's Gospel.

"...for Yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever". While true is not found until the 5th or 6th century.
 
Of course the real question should be what formulation do you use?

debts, and debtors

sins, and sinners

or

trespasses and trespasses against us
 
Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries.

the "vain repetitions" that Christ speaks of certainly can't be directed towards His prayer. I would not call anything that our Lord teaches to be "vain."
Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.

I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.
 
My congregation recites in the AM worship right after the pastoral prayer. I can take it or leave it.

I do not think that the RPW prohibits it, so I am not opposed to it.
 
Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries.

the "vain repetitions" that Christ speaks of certainly can't be directed towards His prayer. I would not call anything that our Lord teaches to be "vain."
Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.

Anything you say without thinking, or without really meaning it from your heart, is vain. The words our Lord used were not vain when HE said them, but they can be when we say them. :2cents:
 
Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries.

the "vain repetitions" that Christ speaks of certainly can't be directed towards His prayer. I would not call anything that our Lord teaches to be "vain."

Me neither. But like I said His intent was not for us to recite verbatim and because we have not been faithful to His teaching in taking His outline on HOW to pray, WE have in turn reduced His precious words into "vain repetition" because of our tradition, In my humble opinion.


Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.

I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.

It could be looked at that way but on the other hand, I don't think He had babbling sounds in mind when He instructed us on the Prayer but rather that when the hypocrites pray(using His words) they attempt to impress those around them by using a large quantity of words and most importantly those words do not come from the heart but become religious repetitions and therefore to God are meaningless. So again in my opinion I believe that reciting the Lord's Prayer verbatim and not seeing it soley for its model of prayer it has become vain and repetitious, heartless, robotic and religious hence meaningless.
 
I do not think that the RPW prohibits it, so I am not opposed to it.

Actually if you hold to the view (and I believe the biblical view) that the Lord's Prayer is the ultimate MODEL on how to pray and not meant to be recited verbatim, then yes it would go against the RPW because we are not commanded to recite this prayer and incorporate it into our worship. As a matter of fact even if it was meant to be recited verbatim, it still is not commanded to be used in public worship and actually states to be done in private behind closed doors (Matt. 6:6) hmmmmm. :think:

So either way, many will still view it as being in violation of the RPW.
 
Roldan,

Are the angels being vain and repetitive who hover around God's throne and repeat "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. The earth is filled with his glory."
 
Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.

I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.

It could be looked at that way but on the other hand, I don't think He had babbling sounds in mind when He instructed us on the Prayer but rather that when the hypocrites pray(using His words) they attempt to impress those around them by using a large quantity of words and most importantly those words do not come from the heart but become religious repetitions and therefore to God are meaningless. So again in my opinion I believe that reciting the Lord's Prayer verbatim and not seeing it soley for its model of prayer it has become vain and repetitious, heartless, robotic and religious hence meaningless.

I would respectfully disagree with you here. I think the Greek text points more to what I have described in my post.
Thankfully there is room in Christ's kingdom for such differences :D
 
Roldan,

Are the angels being vain and repetitive who hover around God's throne and repeat "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. The earth is filled with his glory."

Of course not, but then again they are not fallen creatures corrupted by sin and therefore are joyfully and heartfully repetitive hence meaningful.
 
Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.

I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.

It could be looked at that way but on the other hand, I don't think He had babbling sounds in mind when He instructed us on the Prayer but rather that when the hypocrites pray(using His words) they attempt to impress those around them by using a large quantity of words and most importantly those words do not come from the heart but become religious repetitions and therefore to God are meaningless. So again in my opinion I believe that reciting the Lord's Prayer verbatim and not seeing it soley for its model of prayer it has become vain and repetitious, heartless, robotic and religious hence meaningless.

I would respectfully disagree with you here. I think the Greek text points more to what I have described in my post.
Thankfully there is room in Christ's kingdom for such differences :D


I'm all for knowing greek and all that but you don't have to know greek to consider the whole context of the passage. The burden is on you to prove that when Christ was referring to the Scribes and Pharisees aka hypocrites they were speaking in some type of meaningless speech similar to the charasmatic movement.
 
I'm all for knowing greek and all that but you don't have to know greek to consider the whole context of the passage. The burden is on you to prove that when Christ was referring to the Scribes and Pharisees aka hypocrites they were speaking in some type of meaningless speech similar to the charasmatic movement.

Let me lighten my burden a bit then...
The immediate context is clearly NOT referring to the Scribe and Pharisees...

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Mat 6:7)


The "tongues" of the charismatic circles is very similar to Hindu practices...

In the Kundalini (serpent power) practices they speak in this same kind of "tongues"
 
It is also worth noting that the end of the prayer in Matthew is absent from the earliest manuscripts. Matthew 6:13 should end with "deliver us from evil". Much like the "end" of Mark's Gospel.

"...for Yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever". While true is not found until the 5th or 6th century.

Interesting...:detective:
 
Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.

Curt,

Do you sing certain hymns frequently at your church? If so, is that a "vain repetition"? I think not.

The book of Psalms is a collection of liturgical prayers, hymns, medetations, etc. In other words, God intended that such divine odes would be recited by His people throughout the ages. Also consider the fact that Christ sang a collection of these Psalms with His disciples; was this vain repetition? I think not.

As such, praying the Lord's Prayer as a liturgical device is nothing short of biblical, and enriches the worship service.

Anything man does can be "empty words"; whether he makes it up on the spot, or whether it's written on a piece of paper for him to read. God wrote a bunch of prayers down for us to read: the Psalms. To argue against liturgical prayers is (to me) fairly short-sighted, and will inevitably lead to hypocrisy, due to the repetition of hymns we sing, and the fact that we're not spontaneously singing them.

Also, the recitation of the Lord's Prayer is not a Presbyterian tradition: it is a universal, long-established custom, with a strong bibilcal and theological justification. The burden of proof would rest with anyone wishing not to recite it.

Cheers,

Adam
 
Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.

Curt,

Do you sing certain hymns frequently at your church? If so, is that a "vain repetition"? I think not.

The book of Psalms is a collection of liturgical prayers, hymns, medetations, etc. In other words, God intended that such divine odes would be recited by His people throughout the ages. Also consider the fact that Christ sang a collection of these Psalms with His disciples; was this vain repetition? I think not.

As such, praying the Lord's Prayer as a liturgical device is nothing short of biblical, and enriches the worship service.

Anything man does can be "empty words"; whether he makes it up on the spot, or whether it's written on a piece of paper for him to read. God wrote a bunch of prayers down for us to read: the Psalms. To argue against liturgical prayers is (to me) fairly short-sighted, and will inevitably lead to hypocrisy, due to the repetition of hymns we sing, and the fact that we're not spontaneously singing them.

Also, the recitation of the Lord's Prayer is not a Presbyterian tradition: it is a universal, long-established custom, with a strong bibilcal and theological justification. The burden of proof would rest with anyone wishing not to recite it.

Cheers,

Adam

Adam, your comparing apples to oranges.

And Presbyterian tradition or not its still tradition NOT based on a scriptural command, seems like everyone like to use the RPW card at convenience when it fits.

And lastly the burden has been proven from the context of the passage, the burden is on those who want to recite it to prove that Christ intended it to be recited verbatim and not only that but recited in worship, and not be argued from tradition but to be argued exegetically from the TEXT. The fact that its in the bible is not an argument and even opens up a variety of things to enter.

Prove your assertions exegetically from the text.
 
I'm all for knowing greek and all that but you don't have to know greek to consider the whole context of the passage. The burden is on you to prove that when Christ was referring to the Scribes and Pharisees aka hypocrites they were speaking in some type of meaningless speech similar to the charasmatic movement.

Let me lighten my burden a bit then...
The immediate context is clearly NOT referring to the Scribe and Pharisees...

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Mat 6:7)


The "tongues" of the charismatic circles is very similar to Hindu practices...

In the Kundalini (serpent power) practices they speak in this same kind of "tongues"

Actually He is equating them as the same and He still is referring to the use of MANY words as opposed to unintelligable words.
 
Jesus taught us: "When you pray say..."

The WCF 21.3 says:

Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship, is by God required of all men: and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of His Spirit, according to His will, with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance; and, if vocal, in a known tongue.

Therefore, when we pray in worship, it is NOT against the RPW to pray the Lord's prayer. Christ taught us to say these words when we pray (yes, it is also a model for all prayers, but He commanded that these words be said).

Further, the WLC says:

Q. 187. How is the Lord’s Prayer to be used?

A. The Lord’s Prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make other prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.

There is no prohibition in the Confession against using the Lord's prayer in worship. Those who claim it is contrary to the RPW bear the burden of proof and argue against the Confession.
 
Adam, your comparing apples to oranges.

And Presbyterian tradition or not its still tradition NOT based on a scriptural command, seems like everyone like to use the RPW card at convenience when it fits.

And lastly the burden has been proven from the context of the passage, the burden is on those who want to recite it to prove that Christ intended it to be recited verbatim and not only that but recited in worship, and not be argued from tradition but to be argued exegetically from the TEXT. The fact that its in the bible is not an argument and even opens up a variety of things to enter.

Prove your assertions exegetically from the text.

Hey Ricky,

You're missing the forest: see my argument about the Psalms: liturgical prayers intended to be used in public worship; see the example of Christ singing a liturgical prayer at the Passover in the gospels.

Cheers,

Adam
 
Jesus taught us: "When you pray say..."

The WCF 21.3 says:

Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship, is by God required of all men: and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of His Spirit, according to His will, with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance; and, if vocal, in a known tongue.

Therefore, when we pray in worship, it is NOT against the RPW to pray the Lord's prayer.

So then we could also incorporate in our worship all the sound Roman Catholic prayers that they use in their worship since it fits the WCF definition of prayer or how your using it anyways, right?


Christ taught us to say these words when we pray (yes, it is also a model for all prayers, but He commanded that these words be said).

This is where we would disagree, Christ commanded no such thing. He says to "in this manner therefore pray" NKJV or "Pray then like this" ESV "pray then in this way" ""This, then, is how you should pray" NIV

This is the meaning in the greek


Further, the WLC says:

Q. 187. How is the Lord’s Prayer to be used?

A. The Lord’s Prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make other prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.

There is no prohibition in the Confession against using the Lord's prayer in worship. Those who claim it is contrary to the RPW bear the burden of proof and argue against the Confession.

WHere is their exegetical support for using it as a prayer?

BTW I'm just using the RPW argument for those who are strict RPWers
 
Jesus taught us: "When you pray say..."

The WCF 21.3 says:

Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship, is by God required of all men: and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of His Spirit, according to His will, with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance; and, if vocal, in a known tongue.

Therefore, when we pray in worship, it is NOT against the RPW to pray the Lord's prayer.

So then we could also incorporate in our worship all the sound Roman Catholic prayers that they use in their worship since it fits the WCF definition of prayer or how your using it anyways, right?

If the words are sound, then it doesn't matter who originally wrote them, it matters who is praying them.



This is where we would disagree, Christ commanded no such thing. He says to "in this manner therefore pray" NKJV or "Pray then like this" ESV "pray then in this way" ""This, then, is how you should pray" NIV

This is the meaning in the greek

Luke 11:2

ESV
And he said to them, "When you pray, say:

NIV
He said to them, "When you pray, say:

NKJV
So He said to them, “When you pray, say:

KJV
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,

1550 Stephanus New Testament
lego: to say (Strong's # 3004)

1881 Westcott-Hort
lego




Further, the WLC says:

Q. 187. How is the Lord’s Prayer to be used?

A. The Lord’s Prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make other prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.

There is no prohibition in the Confession against using the Lord's prayer in worship. Those who claim it is contrary to the RPW bear the burden of proof and argue against the Confession.

WHere is their exegetical support for using it as a prayer?

Again, the burden of proof is on you to show that the confession is wrong.

BTW I'm just using the RPW argument for those who are strict RPWers
 
Actually He is equating them as the same and He still is referring to the use of MANY words as opposed to unintelligable(sic) words.

The "vain repetitions" or "βατταλογήσητε"...if that font doesn't show up it's "Battalogesete" which means "to babble"

so yes, it does mean unintelligible.

The "much speaking" is, of course, in reference to the use of many words...but it must be taken in context of the rest of the verse, and clearly "vain repetitions" does mean "babbling"
 
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