Covenant Theology, RPW, and Musical Instruments

[Bygracealone]

Well, I didn't want to get another wake up call from you tomorrow morning, so I thought I'd contribute a post long enough to keep you occupied for a while

Shall we tell the members of the PB at what time you were still in bed????

No shame here Doogie, it was my first night back home after a week of being in hotel rooms and guest beds and driving some 1500 miles... There truly is no place like home and your own bed. So yeah, I definitely slept in this morning

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Well, I didn't want to get another wake up call from you tomorrow morning, so I thought I'd contribute a post long enough to keep you occupied for a while

Shall we tell the members of the PB at what time you were still in bed????

No shame here Doogie, it was my first night back home after a week of being in hotel rooms and guest beds and driving some 1500 miles... There truly is no place like home and your own bed. So yeah, I definitely slept in this morning

Inquiring minds want to know...did you get some good books in Grand Rapids??

 

[Bygracealone]

Wow! Argumentum ad nausem!

Seems to show that one of the differences between an Orthodox synagogue and a Reformed synagogue may be it's use of instruments in the worship service...

So, I guess you concur with the point I made that rebutted your earlier assertion:

You see, it was well understood that the musical instruments were only to be used in the temple services, by the Levites, during the sacrifice. So, it’s no surprise that they weren't used in synagogue worship since none of these things are present.

JD, not at all. If you go back and re-read the full post in context, you'll see that I qualified which synagogue worship I was referring to; I was referring to Orthodox synagogue worship. The Orthodox are more conservative and strive to be truer to the ancient practices. They are the ones that don't allow musical instruments.

 

[MW]

Not either/or, but both/and within the liberty of conscience.

Your both/and category creates "prescribed circumstances," contrary to the regulative principle of worship. As Owen writes, any circumstance made obliging by authority is an element of worship: "such additionals, that are called circumstantial, are made parts of worship as are made necessary by virtue of command to be observed." (Works 15:36.)

 

[Bygracealone]

Shall we tell the members of the PB at what time you were still in bed????

No shame here Doogie, it was my first night back home after a week of being in hotel rooms and guest beds and driving some 1500 miles... There truly is no place like home and your own bed. So yeah, I definitely slept in this morning

Inquiring minds want to know...did you get some good books in Grand Rapids??

I know it's off topic, but you have to respond to a question like this, right?

Hi Andrew, ohhhhh yeah!!! I visited Beeke's shop as well as Baker Books. I got the three volume work by John Brown on the "Sayings and Discourses of Our Lord." Also got "The Covenant of Life Opened" by Rutherford (Rev. Winzer, Casey, etc., I'm still studying the subject about Mosaic Covenant )

Also got "Psalmody Through the Ages" by Ted Postma and "The Messiah and the Psalms" by Richard Belcher. I got a few other used books as well (some Hodge, Boettner, and Berkouwer). Overall, it was a productive book shopping trip.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Once it is concluded on the basis of NT evidence that synagogue worship is normative

Where is it conclusively shown that synagogue worship is normative? Christ demonstrated time and time again that Jewish practice and adherence had become corrupted.

The NT assemblies were synagogue-meetings, James 2:2; Heb. 10:25; likewise those who presided over such assemblies took their names from the synagogue -- presbuteroi; further, the various procedures, such as voting in office-bearers, the power of excommunication, and the congregational Amen, are from the synagogue. This evidence, taken in connection with the fact that the Christian congregation was historically annexed from the Jewish synagogue, conclusively shows that synagogue worship was normative for the apostolic church. For more evidence one may consult Litton's "Church of Christ, pp. 185-188, available here: The Church of Christ, in Its Idea ... - Google Book Search

That some synagogue practices were adopted as the NT church was "testing everything and keeping the good" is without dispute, but that synagogue worship in toto was normative and prescribed for the NT church in terms of orthodoxy or orthopraxy is not supported by Scripture or the history of the church.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Not either/or, but both/and within the liberty of conscience.

Your both/and category creates "prescribed circumstances," contrary to the regulative principle of worship. As Owen writes, any circumstance made obliging by authority is an element of worship: "such additionals, that are called circumstantial, are made parts of worship as are made necessary by virtue of command to be observed." (Works 15:36.)

so...you observe communion and baptism at every worship service?

 

[MW]

Not either/or, but both/and within the liberty of conscience.

Your both/and category creates "prescribed circumstances," contrary to the regulative principle of worship. As Owen writes, any circumstance made obliging by authority is an element of worship: "such additionals, that are called circumstantial, are made parts of worship as are made necessary by virtue of command to be observed." (Works 15:36.)

so...you observe communion and baptism at every worship service?

I can't see the relevance of the question seeing as the circumstance is determined by prudence not by scriptural prescription; but the sacraments are administered as need requires, not every worship service.

 

[bookslover]

Well, then, since there is no passage in the NT that abrogates the command, then musical instruments are still to be used in worship.

Have you purchased a harp for next Lord's day service?

I would, but they're very expensive!

 

[bookslover]

Gal. 4:9 - "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?"

And you're going to sneak musical instruments into this verse how, exactly?

 

[bookslover]

Have you purchased a harp for next Lord's day service?

I already have a stringed instrument

But the Psalms nowhere command a guitar.

That's because there were no guitars in Old Testament times (the lyre comes close, though). Besides, I believe musical instruments are part of the circumstances of worship rather than the specific contents covered by the RPW and, therefore, are a matter of liberty.

 

[bookslover]

I have cited Scripture after Scripture to demonstrate that the musical instruments used in OT worship were appointed by God for particular use in the temple ritual in connection with the sacrifice. Please don't say I haven't marshalled the Scriptures to support my position.

Again, yes, you have successfully demonstrated your position. But you have not demonstrated that musical instruments are banned in New Testament worship.

 

[bookslover]

The overwhelming and constant voice of the Church through the ages.

To which I would say that the Church, in this instance, was wrong for 1200 years. Besides, we are to build our arguments on Scripture, not church history.

 

[dcomin]

Gal. 4:9 - "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?"

And you're going to sneak musical instruments into this verse how, exactly?

Sir, I am not trying to "sneak" anything anywhere, for such an action would be underhanded, dishonest, and disrespectful of the Holy Scriptures. Did you intend to accuse me of such motives?

 

[panta dokimazete]

Your both/and category creates "prescribed circumstances," contrary to the regulative principle of worship. As Owen writes, any circumstance made obliging by authority is an element of worship: "such additionals, that are called circumstantial, are made parts of worship as are made necessary by virtue of command to be observed." (Works 15:36.)

so...you observe communion and baptism at every worship service?

I can't see the relevance of the question seeing as the circumstance is determined by prudence not by scriptural prescription; but the sacraments are administered as need requires, not every worship service.

To illustrate the larger point: Instruments are a prescribed part of worship, per the Psalms, but not necessitated by prescription in every instance, as clearly demonstrated by the examples of worship sans instruments in the NT.

 

[bookslover]

Gal. 4:9 - "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?"

And you're going to sneak musical instruments into this verse how, exactly?

Sir, I am not trying to "sneak" anything anywhere, for such an action would be underhanded, dishonest, and disrespectful of the Holy Scriptures. Did you intend to accuse me of such motives?

No, I just want to know how you see that musical instruments are included in what Paul is talking about here. I probably should have used some kind of smiley after "sneak" to indicate that I was being colloquial, not snide, in my usage of same.

 

[dcomin]

And you're going to sneak musical instruments into this verse how, exactly?

Sir, I am not trying to "sneak" anything anywhere, for such an action would be underhanded, dishonest, and disrespectful of the Holy Scriptures. Did you intend to accuse me of such motives?

No, I just want to know how you see that musical instruments are included in what Paul is talking about here. I probably should have used some kind of smiley after "sneak" to indicate that I was being colloquial, not snide, in my usage of same.

The point that I have been trying to demonstrate (obviously, not very persuasively) is that musical instruments were an integral part of the ceremonial worship of the OT - and thus have been abrogated along with all of the other external ceremonial rites of that dispensation.

Matthew Henry comments on Gal 4:9

...what they suffered themselves to be brought into bondage to were but weak and beggarly elements, such things as had no power in them to cleanse the soul, nor to afford any solid satisfaction to the mind, and which were only designed for that state of pupillage under which the church had been, but which had now come to a period."

John Calvin would certainly have categorized the use of musical instruments among the "weak and beggarly elements" - that little Genevan sneak!

 

[MW]

To illustrate the larger point: Instruments are a prescribed part of worship, per the Psalms, but not necessitated by prescription in every instance, as clearly demonstrated by the examples of worship sans instruments in the NT.

Again, this is nothing more than a "prescribed circumstance," which is a sui generis, and outside the boundaries of the regulative principle; for which see Owen's statement above. The sacraments are by definition prescribed parts of worship, but such parts as are added as signs to the Word; their nature requires certain qualifications to be met before administration. Your "prescribed circumstance" of musical instruments, however, is nothing more than a human addition to be used or not used as you deem fit. It is this human arbitrariness which is guarded against by the regulative principle.

 

[panta dokimazete]

It should be no more arbitrary than choosing the particular Scripture for worship or words for the prayers.

I reject your usage of arbitrary as it regards the Lord's worship. Each element should be dutifully considered and accomplished with all gravity and purpose.

 

[MW]

It should be no more arbitrary than choosing the particular Scripture for worship or words for the prayers.

I reject your usage of arbitrary as it regards the Lord's worship. Each element should be dutifully considered and accomplished with all gravity and purpose.

Here you revert back to calling it an "element." Elements are such as God has commanded and man is obliged to offer at His will. They are not left to man's discretion. Only the ordering of circumstances is left to human prudence.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Music is an element. Singing is required, utilizing instruments as appropriate.

Just as preaching is an element. Proclamation is required, having the Scriptures to hand as appropriate.

Psalm 96:2
Sing to the LORD, bless His name; Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Music is an element. Singing is required, utilizing instruments as appropriate.

Just as preaching is an element. Proclamation is required, having the Scriptures to hand as appropriate.

Psalm 96:2
Sing to the LORD, bless His name; Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day.

Scriptures are not just "appropriate" what else should a preacher preach from?

 

[panta dokimazete]

Must one have the Scriptures on-hand every time one preaches? Is it required?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Must one have the Scriptures on-hand every time one preaches? Is it required?

Yes it is. What else can one preach on?

 

[panta dokimazete]

Do you have to have a set of Scriptures to hand in order to preach?

I certainly believe it is a matter of appropriateness - if you can have them there, you probably ought. But I don't think Christ or the Apostles modeled that as a requirement.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

2 Tim 3:16-17 requires that you use the Scriptures for teaching and training.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Ok, I am not going to get into infinite regression on this point, my brother.

I have laid out the rationale and am convinced that Prescriptive Psalmody is defendable within the RPW. I am sure we'll have another go at some point, but I think this thread is about done, from my perspective, anyway.

On a side note: I don't know if ya'll knew that I have had the opportunity to spend a good bit more time on the PB than I normally do. I have been recuperating from MRSA staff on my neck. This discussion has been a welcome distraction, but I am back into the grind again, starting today, so I won't be able to follow the discussion as closely as I have been.

Thanks to Backwoods for offering a platform to discuss the matter and thanks to all the learned brethren that so passionately, yet graciously, defend their well-grounded positions. I have learned a lot.

Expect another thread on Prescriptive Psalmody.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Thank you as well Panta and for your recovery.

 

[dcomin]

On a side note: I don't know if ya'll knew that I have had the opportunity to spend a good bit more time on the PB than I normally do. I have been recuperating from MRSA staff on my neck. This discussion has been a welcome distraction, but I am back into the grind again, starting today, so I won't be able to follow the discussion as closely as I have been.

Thanks to Backwoods for offering a platform to discuss the matter and thanks to all the learned brethren that so passionately, yet graciously, defend their well-grounded positions. I have learned a lot.

Expect another thread on Prescriptive Psalmody.

Had no idea, but praise God for His healing grace! Always appreciate the "iron-sharpening" sparring with you, JD. Thanks for your graciousness as well. Grace and peace!

 

[timmopussycat]

OK, at the risk of being a little terse:
The only way your original syllogism, based on Paul and Silas in prison. could have proved anything is if they had had musical instruments with them in jail and refrained from using them.

Your objection doesn't take into account the point being controverted. If the OT command is prescriptive for NT worship then the OT command is obliging and non-negotiable. Other non-instrumental contexts are irrelevant.

As the post to which you are replying had noted: the OT contains prescriptive commands for BOTH unaccompanied sung praise and accompanied sung praise. It is not one command or the other that is normative but rather both are. The OT is explicit. Although there are a number of places where we cannot determine whether praise is accompaied or not, God clearly commands and commends His praises being sung both ways: unaccompanied (Ps. 57:9 appears to be set outside the sanctuary and may have been unacompanied as does 42:8, 77:6) and with instrumental accompaniment (Ps. 33:2, 71:22, 98:5). Outside the sanctuary, (unless you want to advocate that the Jews ONLY sang the psalms in the sanctuary), it is GNC reasoning from the data to conclude that the choice of unaccompanied worship or accompanied worship was left to the worshipper in the OT and remains left to the worshipper in the NT.

Given that reality, Paul and Silas exercised what was likely the only option available to them under the circumstances. I don't see a competent jailor letting people keep musical instruments in prison, even if either was a musician, not if he expected to sleep.