Covenant Theology, RPW, and Musical Instruments

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

By the way Thomas Aquinas gives a great definition for the RPW

Now we should employ nothing in the divine worship, save what is delivered to us on the authority of Scripture.

Good. Since musical instruments were used in the Old Testament, and since they are not banned in the New Testament, then musical instruments are allowed in worship.

Where is your scriptural proof for this? Excepting John's visions of angles in heaven in Revelation and descriptions of Temple worship the New Testament does not speak once as to Musical Instruments in worship at all.

 

[panta dokimazete]

So...it is plain to see that I rebutted your error with sources from "your side" of the argument - that does not mean I accept the rationale, simply that the facts disagree with your assertion.

What? The "facts" you presented support the NT Church's disuse of Jewish Temple worship and all things associated with worship.

BP - you asserted that fear of imitating the Greeks was not a concern of the early church fathers as it regards utilizing instruments. I presented proof that you were in error.

I still fail to see where the New Testament says that the Psalms are proscriptive and normative for New Testament worship?

Again - they are not "pro"scriptive, that is, showing what is forbidden in terms of worship, they are "pre"scriptive in that they are a guide to what is acceptable - per the command of the apostle.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

So...it is plain to see that I rebutted your error with sources from "your side" of the argument - that does not mean I accept the rationale, simply that the facts disagree with your assertion.

What? The "facts" you presented support the NT Church's disuse of Jewish Temple worship and all things associated with worship.

BP - you asserted that fear of imitating the Greeks was not a concern of the early church fathers as it regards utilizing instruments. I presented proof that you were in error.

I still fail to see where the New Testament says that the Psalms are proscriptive and normative for New Testament worship?

Again - they are not "pro"scriptive, that is, showing what is forbidden in terms of worship, they are "pre"scriptive in that they are a guide to what is acceptable - per the command of the apostle.

I did not say it was not a concern I said that is not why they did not allow instruments into Christian worship.

As far as the Psalms being "pre"scriptive for worship again if they are why do you not follow all that they teach? We cannot just select the parts that are prescriptive. We must, if they are prescriptive, then follow their decrees to the fullest.

Here are some of what the Psalms command for worship:

Psalm 29:2 "...Worship the LORD in holy array."

Psalm 95:6 " Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker."

Psalm 96:9 "Worship the LORD in holy attire..."


Why or why not should we do these things in worship, as the Psalms command?

 

[Casey]

As far as the Psalms being "pre"scriptive for worship again if they are why do you not follow all that they teach? Only pointing to what is ultimately culturally conditioned to be toward the "liking" of the modern Church?

[friendly note]
Brother, I believe this is inappropriate. If you go back and re-read JD's posts, you'll see that he's not arguing for "what is ultimately culturally conditioned to be toward the 'liking' of the modern Church." The nature of his argument is from the Scriptures, not cultural sensitivities. Now you may think his use of Scripture is wrong, and if you do, then argue against that.
[/friendly note]

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

As far as the Psalms being "pre"scriptive for worship again if they are why do you not follow all that they teach? Only pointing to what is ultimately culturally conditioned to be toward the "liking" of the modern Church?

[friendly note]
Brother, I believe this is inappropriate. If you go back and re-read JD's posts, you'll see that he's not arguing for "what is ultimately culturally conditioned to be toward the 'liking' of the modern Church." The nature of his argument is from the Scriptures, not cultural sensitivities. Now you may think his use of Scripture is wrong, and if you do, then argue against that.
[/friendly note]

Thanks Casey. I'll re-write to make it more friendly.

 

[RTaron]

With all due respect, where does Scripture mandate the use of instruments unaccompanied by praise? In every instance of OT worship I know of, instruments are used as accompaniment to praise\worship, not as sufficient in and of itself.QUOTE]

This verse came to mind after reading this.

Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.
Numbers 10:10

This seems to be an instance where the instrument was used without the singing of prasies.

 

[dcomin]

Submitted for your consideration...

Here is a survey of the references to musical instruments in worship throughout 1 and 2 Chronicles...

1. The use of musical instruments in the OT worship was a function of the Levites, who presided over the sacrificial system.

1 Chronicles 15:16 And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy.

2. The specifically appointed function of these Levites was to minister before the ark of the LORD.

1 Chronicles 16:4-6 And he appointed certain of the Levites to minister before the ark of the LORD, and to record, and to thank and praise the LORD God of Israel: 5 Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, Jeiel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Mattithiah, and Eliab, and Benaiah, and Obededom: and Jeiel with psalteries and with harps; but Asaph made a sound with cymbals; 6 Benaiah also and Jahaziel the priests with trumpets continually before the ark of the covenant of God.

1 Chronicles 16:37 So he left there before the ark of the covenant of the LORD Asaph and his brethren, to minister before the ark continually, as every day's work required:

3. Those appointed to play musical instruments were specifically-named members of the priestly family, who were charged to employ the "instruments of God" in connection with the burnt offerings "according to all that is written in the law of the LORD."

1 Chronicles 16:39-42 And Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the tabernacle of the LORD in the high place that was at Gibeon, 40 To offer burnt offerings unto the LORD upon the altar of the burnt offering continually morning and evening, and to do according to all that is written in the law of the LORD, which he commanded Israel; {morning...: Heb. in the morning, and in the evening} 41 And with them Heman and Jeduthun, and the rest that were chosen, who were expressed by name, to give thanks to the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever; 42 And with them Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those that should make a sound, and with musical instruments of God. And the sons of Jeduthun were porters.

4. Within the order of the priests and Levites there were 4,000 appointed to play musical instruments made by David himself for the purpose of praising God.

1 Chronicles 23:2-5 And he gathered together all the princes of Israel, with the priests and the Levites. 3 Now the Levites were numbered from the age of thirty years and upward: and their number by their polls, man by man, was thirty and eight thousand. 4 Of which, twenty and four thousand were to set forward the work of the house of the LORD; and six thousand were officers and judges: 5 Moreover four thousand were porters; and four thousand praised the LORD with the instruments which I made, said David, to praise therewith.

5. In addition to ministering before the ark of the LORD and praising in connection with the burnt offering, some of the priests and Levites were set apart to prophesy with musical instruments.

1 Chronicles 25:1-2 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was: 2 Of the sons of Asaph; Zaccur, and Joseph, and Nethaniah, and Asarelah, the sons of Asaph under the hands of Asaph, which prophesied according to the order of the king.

6. The employment of the instruments was a function of the priests, arrayed in white linen.

2 Chronicles 5:12-13 Also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets 13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

2 Chronicles 7:6 And the priests waited on their offices: the Levites also with instruments of musick of the LORD, which David the king had made to praise the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever, when David praised by their ministry; and the priests sounded trumpets before them, and all Israel stood.

7. The use of the musical instruments by the Levites was carefully done according to the prescription of God through His prophets - only Levites, and only the specific instruments appointed by God.

2 Chronicles 29:25-26 And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. 26 And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets.

8. The Levitical function of employing the musical instruments commenced with the offering of the burnt offering.

2 Chronicles 29:27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel.

9. The Levitical funtion of employing the musical instruments stopped at the completion of the burnt offering.

2 Chronicles 29:28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.

10. When the burnt offering was finished, the instruments were put away, but the singing of praises continued in reverent worship to God.

2 Chronicles 29:29-30 And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped. 30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.

 

[panta dokimazete]

With all due respect, where does Scripture mandate the use of instruments unaccompanied by praise? In every instance of OT worship I know of, instruments are used as accompaniment to praiseworship, not as sufficient in and of itself.

This verse came to mind after reading this.

Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.
Numbers 10:10

This seems to be an instance where the instrument was used without the singing of prasies.

Popping in quickly from work...

Good point - except the use of the trumpet in this example is contextualized as an alarm, a noise maker, a signal, like a siren, not as melody making musical accompaniment.

Numbers 10

1The LORD spoke further to Moses, saying,

2"Make yourself two trumpets of silver, of hammered work you shall make them; and you shall use them for summoning the congregation and for having the camps set out.

3"When both are blown, all the congregation shall gather themselves to you at the doorway of the tent of meeting.

4"Yet if only one is blown, then the leaders, the heads of the divisions of Israel, shall assemble before you.

5"But when you blow an alarm, the camps that are pitched on the east side shall set out.

6"When you blow an alarm the second time, the camps that are pitched on the south side shall set out; an alarm is to be blown for them to set out.

7"When convening the assembly, however, you shall blow without sounding an alarm.

8"The priestly sons of Aaron, moreover, shall blow the trumpets; and this shall be for you a perpetual statute throughout your generations.

9"When you go to war in your land against the adversary who attacks you, then you shall sound an alarm with the trumpets, that you may be remembered before the LORD your God, and be saved from your enemies.

10"Also in the day of your gladness and in your appointed feasts, and on the first days of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; and they shall be as a reminder of you before your God. I am the LORD your God."

 

[panta dokimazete]

What? The "facts" you presented support the NT Church's disuse of Jewish Temple worship and all things associated with worship.

BP - you asserted that fear of imitating the Greeks was not a concern of the early church fathers as it regards utilizing instruments. I presented proof that you were in error.

I still fail to see where the New Testament says that the Psalms are proscriptive and normative for New Testament worship?

Again - they are not "pro"scriptive, that is, showing what is forbidden in terms of worship, they are "pre"scriptive in that they are a guide to what is acceptable - per the command of the apostle.

I did not say it was not a concern I said that is not why they did not allow instruments into Christian worship.

As far as the Psalms being "pre"scriptive for worship again if they are why do you not follow all that they teach? We cannot just select the parts that are prescriptive. We must, if they are prescriptive, then follow their decrees to the fullest.

Here are some of what the Psalms command for worship:

Psalm 29:2 "...Worship the LORD in holy array."

Psalm 96:9 "Worship the LORD in holy attire..."

We do.

Revelation 3:4-6

4'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

5'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

6'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Revelation 3:4-6 is speaking of the time to come:

See Matthew Henry:

1. A great reward promised to the conquering Christian (v. 5), and it is very much the same with what has been already mentioned: He that overcometh shall be clothed in white raiment.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Revelation 3:4-6 is speaking of the time to come:

See Matthew Henry:

1. A great reward promised to the conquering Christian (v. 5), and it is very much the same with what has been already mentioned: He that overcometh shall be clothed in white raiment.

Nope - falls under the "now, not yet" distinction.

How about this?

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

 

[panta dokimazete]

Matthew, Doug - I am not overlooking your posts - will respond when I have more time, thanks for the interaction!

 

[panta dokimazete]

Thinking of a book title: The Psalms Triumphant: the supremacy of the Psalms as ultimate guide to the worship of God in spirit and truth.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Falls under the "now, not yet" distinction.

How about this?

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

So you are saying that the call in the Psalms to clothe oneself with "holy attire" is figurative and not normative?

 

[panta dokimazete]

Falls under the "now, not yet" distinction.

How about this?

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

So you are saying that the call in the Psalms to clothe oneself with "holy attire" is figurative and not normative?

Nope - the holy attire is normative, but we have a greater and holier "attire" in Christ.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Falls under the "now, not yet" distinction.

How about this?

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

So you are saying that the call in the Psalms to clothe oneself with "holy attire" is figurative and not normative?

Nope - the holy attire is normative, but we have a greater and holier "attire" in Christ.

So what exactly is holy attire?

 

[panta dokimazete]

So what exactly is holy attire?

Well, since you brought it up, I'll give you first shot at defining it.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I am not the one trying to say the Psalms are prescriptive for NT worship (thereby proving somehow that instruments are commanded for NT worship.)

 

[panta dokimazete]

I'd say, based on a search of the scriptures, it is attire which is set apart to God. What that may have meant to the OT worshiper, I am not sure, but I can reasonably discern what it now means to the NT worshiper, since there is scripture to apply to it.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I'd say, based on a search of the scriptures, it is attire which is set apart to God. What that may have meant to the OT worshiper, I am not sure, but I can reasonably discern what it now means to the NT worshiper, since there is scripture to apply to it.

Though going to this discussion is I must say that it seems that "Holy Attire" is nowhere commanded by the NT nor is it even remotely covered under the RPW.

 

[panta dokimazete]

It's commanded through the Psalms and perfectly fulfilled in the NT through Christ.

1. We are commanded to use the Psalms as our guide for worship.
2. The Psalms command X and unless X is abrogated or fulfilled by the NT, it is still valid for the NT believer.

 

[timmopussycat]

I still fail to see where the New Testament says that the Psalms are proscriptive and normative for New Testament worship?

So you don't think Eph. 5:19 establishes the point that the psalms and only the psalms are normative for NT worship?

 

[dcomin]

I still fail to see where the New Testament says that the Psalms are proscriptive and normative for New Testament worship?

So you don't think Eph. 5:19 establishes the point that the psalms and only the psalms are normative for NT worship?

I think the word "normative" needs some clarification. Are the Psalms "normative" in the sense that they are the only divinely appointed book of praise and worship songs to be used in the church? Yes. But the word "normative" is usually used in a different sense - namely, that everything mentioned is to be implemented as part of the normal practice of the church. In that sense, the Psalms are not "normative." Many Psalms speak of practices which were part of the OT cultus (i.e., sacrifices) and which are not to be put into practice in the NT church simply because they were mentioned in the Psalms. When we sing them with the greater light that we have in Christ, we understand that the symbols have been fulfilled and we sing them in light of that fulfillment.

I think Backwoods Presbyterian means that the Psalms are not prescriptive and normative in this latter sense. We can't say that everything mentioned in the Psalms was intended to be practised and implemented in NT worship.

 

[panta dokimazete]

But we can say that everything concerning worship in the Psalms not abrogated or fulfilled in the NT is prescriptive and normative.

Not EP or IP, but PP - Prescriptive Psalmody - certainly fits the command of the apostle

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

 

[dcomin]

But we can say that everything concerning worship in the Psalms not abrogated or fulfilled in the NT is prescriptive and normative.

Not EP or IP, but PP - Prescriptive Psalmody - certainly fits the command of the apostle

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

From where I stand, there is no difference between EP and PP. The Psalms themselves instruct us to sing the psalms, as do other parts of Scripture. Since the singing of Psalms was not abrogated or fulfilled in the NT, the command of the Psalter to sing the Psalms is normative and prescriptive.

But the use of musical instruments is abrogated and fulfilled. Thus the references to using instruments in the corporate worship of the people of God found in the Psalms are not normative and prescriptive, any more than the references to the sacrifice.

There are references to the use of musical instruments in the Psalms that refer to their use in other settings besides the corporate public worship of the church, and these I would agree are normative and prescriptive, since they simply charge us to demonstrate our joy and thanksgiving to God with appropriate musical expression.

No one has yet responded to the references I posted from 1 and 2 Chronicles which demonstrate that the liturgical use of musical instruments in the OT was a particular function of the priests and Levites - connected with the sacrifice and the ark of the covenant - and therefore part of the ceremonial order that has been fulfilled by the Priestly work of Christ.

RE-POSTED FOR EMPHASIS...

Submitted for your consideration...

Here is a survey of the references to musical instruments in worship throughout 1 and 2 Chronicles...

1. The use of musical instruments in the OT worship was a function of the Levites, who presided over the sacrificial system.

1 Chronicles 15:16 And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy.

2. The specifically appointed function of these Levites was to minister before the ark of the LORD.

1 Chronicles 16:4-6 And he appointed certain of the Levites to minister before the ark of the LORD, and to record, and to thank and praise the LORD God of Israel: 5 Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, Jeiel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Mattithiah, and Eliab, and Benaiah, and Obededom: and Jeiel with psalteries and with harps; but Asaph made a sound with cymbals; 6 Benaiah also and Jahaziel the priests with trumpets continually before the ark of the covenant of God.

1 Chronicles 16:37 So he left there before the ark of the covenant of the LORD Asaph and his brethren, to minister before the ark continually, as every day's work required:

3. Those appointed to play musical instruments were specifically-named members of the priestly family, who were charged to employ the "instruments of God" in connection with the burnt offerings "according to all that is written in the law of the LORD."

1 Chronicles 16:39-42 And Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the tabernacle of the LORD in the high place that was at Gibeon, 40 To offer burnt offerings unto the LORD upon the altar of the burnt offering continually morning and evening, and to do according to all that is written in the law of the LORD, which he commanded Israel; {morning...: Heb. in the morning, and in the evening} 41 And with them Heman and Jeduthun, and the rest that were chosen, who were expressed by name, to give thanks to the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever; 42 And with them Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those that should make a sound, and with musical instruments of God. And the sons of Jeduthun were porters.

4. Within the order of the priests and Levites there were 4,000 appointed to play musical instruments made by David himself for the purpose of praising God.

1 Chronicles 23:2-5 And he gathered together all the princes of Israel, with the priests and the Levites. 3 Now the Levites were numbered from the age of thirty years and upward: and their number by their polls, man by man, was thirty and eight thousand. 4 Of which, twenty and four thousand were to set forward the work of the house of the LORD; and six thousand were officers and judges: 5 Moreover four thousand were porters; and four thousand praised the LORD with the instruments which I made, said David, to praise therewith.

5. In addition to ministering before the ark of the LORD and praising in connection with the burnt offering, some of the priests and Levites were set apart to prophesy with musical instruments.

1 Chronicles 25:1-2 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was: 2 Of the sons of Asaph; Zaccur, and Joseph, and Nethaniah, and Asarelah, the sons of Asaph under the hands of Asaph, which prophesied according to the order of the king.

6. The employment of the instruments was a function of the priests, arrayed in white linen.

2 Chronicles 5:12-13 Also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets 13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

2 Chronicles 7:6 And the priests waited on their offices: the Levites also with instruments of musick of the LORD, which David the king had made to praise the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever, when David praised by their ministry; and the priests sounded trumpets before them, and all Israel stood.

7. The use of the musical instruments by the Levites was carefully done according to the prescription of God through His prophets - only Levites, and only the specific instruments appointed by God.

2 Chronicles 29:25-26 And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. 26 And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets.

8. The Levitical function of employing the musical instruments commenced with the offering of the burnt offering.

2 Chronicles 29:27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel.

9. The Levitical funtion of employing the musical instruments stopped at the completion of the burnt offering.

2 Chronicles 29:28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.

10. When the burnt offering was finished, the instruments were put away, but the singing of praises continued in reverent worship to God.

2 Chronicles 29:29-30 And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped. 30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.

 

[py3ak]

It's commanded through the Psalms and perfectly fulfilled in the NT through Christ.

1. We are commanded to use the Psalms as our guide for worship.
2. The Psalms command X and unless X is abrogated or fulfilled by the NT, it is still valid for the NT believer.

If I'm not mistaken, this is the exact argument used with regard to the abrogation of instruments.

 

[dcomin]

It's commanded through the Psalms and perfectly fulfilled in the NT through Christ.

1. We are commanded to use the Psalms as our guide for worship.
2. The Psalms command X and unless X is abrogated or fulfilled by the NT, it is still valid for the NT believer.

If I'm not mistaken, this is the exact argument used with regard to the abrogation of instruments.

 

[panta dokimazete]

I am certain it is, if you buy the non-instruments reasoning and the key text of the rationale utilized, that is Hebrews. But the rationale of Hebrews is focused on the Law of Moses and all its sacrificial, dietary and cleanliness accoutrement, not the rejoicing and singing with instrumental accompaniment of the order of David (that Doug has so helpfully pointed out). That is never abrogated.

2 Chronicles 23:18
Moreover, Jehoiada placed the offices of the house of the LORD under the authority of the Levitical priests, whom David had assigned over the house of the LORD, to offer the burnt offerings of the LORD, as it is written in the law of Moses-- with rejoicing and singing according to the order of David.

Hebrews 9:

8The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,

9which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,

10since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,

14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I still fail to see where the New Testament says that the Psalms are proscriptive and normative for New Testament worship?

So you don't think Eph. 5:19 establishes the point that the psalms and only the psalms are normative for NT worship?

I think the word "normative" needs some clarification. Are the Psalms "normative" in the sense that they are the only divinely appointed book of praise and worship songs to be used in the church? Yes. But the word "normative" is usually used in a different sense - namely, that everything mentioned is to be implemented as part of the normal practice of the church. In that sense, the Psalms are not "normative." Many Psalms speak of practices which were part of the OT cultus (i.e., sacrifices) and which are not to be put into practice in the NT church simply because they were mentioned in the Psalms. When we sing them with the greater light that we have in Christ, we understand that the symbols have been fulfilled and we sing them in light of that fulfillment.

I think Backwoods Presbyterian means that the Psalms are not prescriptive and normative in this latter sense. We can't say that everything mentioned in the Psalms was intended to be practiced and implemented in NT worship.

Yes exactly. Thanks!!!

 

[dcomin]

I am certain it is, if you buy the non-instruments reasoning and the key text of the rationale utilized, that is Hebrews. But the rationale of Hebrews is focused on the Law of Moses and all its sacrificial, dietary and cleanliness accoutrement, not the rejoicing and singing with instrumental accompaniment of the order of David (that Doug has so helpfully pointed out). That is never abrogated.

2 Chronicles 23:18
Moreover, Jehoiada placed the offices of the house of the LORD under the authority of the Levitical priests, whom David had assigned over the house of the LORD, to offer the burnt offerings of the LORD, as it is written in the law of Moses-- with rejoicing and singing according to the order of David.

The phrase, "according to the order of David" in this verse simply refers to the command of David to implement the priestly function of the Levitical musicians who employed their instruments in connection with the burnt offering according to the commandment of God. The "order of David" does not refer to an institution separate and distinct from the "Law of Moses."

Hebrews 9:

8The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,

9which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,

10since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,

14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The rationale of the author of Hebrews is that Christ, as the High Priest of the good things to come, fulfilled and put an end to the types and shadows of the OT priestly office. The passages I've cited from 1 and 2 Chronicles demonstrate plainly that the use of musical instruments in connection with the sacrifice was an integral part of that OT priestly and Levitical office and function. Thus they are now put away, having been fulfilled by Him.