DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
Dave,
May you know the comfort of the Lord in the loss of your child. Belated as they may be, my prayers go with you.
Amen. May the Lord give you his comfort in the midst of it.
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Dave,
May you know the comfort of the Lord in the loss of your child. Belated as they may be, my prayers go with you.
Dave,
May you know the comfort of the Lord in the loss of your child. Belated as they may be, my prayers go with you.
Amen. May the Lord give you his comfort in the midst of it.
Dr. Mohler made a mistake. We can't know what happens to children. The Bible is not clear and only inferences can be made on the issue. We have to stay mute where the Scripture is mute. The confessions do a good job in handling the Word here.
Compared to Mr. Spurgeon's Revised 1689 Confession
I cannot say God saves all children based on what I have read in Scripture, especially the children of the non-elect. God can dispose of creatures in His creation as He desires at whatever age.
I wanted to compare my hard copies. It turns out that i dont own the WCF. Unless my lady has the copy. Suppose i will have to make a purchase!
If what you posted is accurate (not doubting you) then i think the WCF is worded better then the 1689. This would be the first time i made that admission!
What he compared there are two different versions of the 1689, not the WCF. The only difference between the original 1689 and the WCF here is that the WCF has "all other elect persons" in the second sentence instead of "all elect persons."
If he had died as an infant, we would not have had this data - and do you not think it possible that if God's will had been to take baby Adolph from his parents - with this enormous change in providential history, it might have been that God would have been taking him as an elect infant?
you can't say hitler was reprobate one hundred percent sure.
I don't think you can give me a biblical example of this. Hitler's life clearly demonstrates that he was not elect - and that includes his infancy, too. He was not a "different person" when he was a baby as opposed to an adult. As an infant, he just had not yet lived long enough to demonstrate the true depths of his wickedness. A person's election or non-election is decided long before he was even conceived - even before God created anything. And God does not change His mind in the middle of someone's life.
And I thought this was a Reformed board!
(1) God chose the elect before creation; (2) Hitler's life demonstrates that he was not elect - from conception until his death. What's not Reformed about this?
Perhaps not literally 100%. But, at the end of his life, Hitler shot his dogs. Then he and Eva Braun took poison. Then, Hitler shot Eva, then shot himself. I don't detect a whole lot of biblical repenting going on right about then. In fact, he committed several sins just by having all this take place.
I think you cross a large gap of the free-will side when you say an infant has original sin, but not the opportunity to chose grace. If we are not held accountable for a decision to willfully chose against Christ, then we are crossing into hyper-Calvinism where my decision means nothing.
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If you say an infant who dies before a decision is made (for or against Christ) can be condemned to death, then in effect all of our decisions are pre-decided and missions are pointless.
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An infant (once again no age/ability) is unable to make any decisions, and even though all who are called are chosen, they are still held accountable to their choice. While we can't understand fully this paradox, I would believe a just God must hold all to the same standard, that His call is effectual, but our will is damnable. Someone incapable of making a decision (both because of being dead in sin, and without the mental cognizance to understand) would be hard to justly condemn.
Personally, I take position 3, that all dying infants of believers are saved, but as for unbelievers, we don't know.
(1) God chose the elect before creation; (2) Hitler's life demonstrates that he was not elect - from conception until his death. What's not Reformed about this?
You said something about "in the middle of his life" so I got to thinking about Paul and Hitler in the middle of their lives. Hitler was a decorated war hero, having won the iron cross. His main sin at that time was an affair with the daughter of his half sister, which has a less severe Biblical penalty than Paul's most serious sin, which was murdering Christians.
Perhaps not literally 100%. But, at the end of his life, Hitler shot his dogs. Then he and Eva Braun took poison. Then, Hitler shot Eva, then shot himself. I don't detect a whole lot of biblical repenting going on right about then. In fact, he committed several sins just by having all this take place.
He poisoned one dog to test a way to kill his wife, who was not Eva Braun, but a legally married Eva Hitler, who was certain to have been raped and murdered by the Red Army. Eva took the same poison she saw demonstrated on the dog of her own free will and wasn't shot by anyone. 3 thousand German women committed suicide the week Berlin fell because of mass rapes, and everyone knew what was in store.
Not to justify things, and I agree he showed no signs of repentance, but I think you will admit you could have worded your post much better.
Regards
Here are a few observations by Curt Daniel on the subject:
(2) All dying infants are lost. I know of no theologian, Calvinist or otherwise, who asserts this.
Yes, I could be wrong on the details. I was writing from memory of something I'd read a long time ago. If your information is better, I accept it. I think my main point still stands, though.
Evie,
No one, infant or adult, can be saved outside of Christ. The papist would claim, "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" as the method whereby children who die in infancy would go to heaven. That is one of the reasons why they rush to baptize infants in the Roman manner. But while we would reject Cyprian's dictum from a Roman perspective, we would say that outside of Christ there is no salvation. How the redemptive work of Christ is imputed to infants apart from faith is a matter no one can truly answer.
But God ordained that Hitler would not die in his infancy. You could speculate about whether Hitler would have been elect if someone had killed him in his infancy, but God specifically ordained that this would not happen -- it isn't the case that we can "trick" God into having elected someone by ending that person's life. It seems illogical to me to speculate about whether someone would have been elect if events entirely contrary to God's will had occurred. Such events could not have occurred, so we can't draw valid conclusions from what would have happened if they had occurred.
On a different point, to those who believe in the election of all dying infants, do you think that this is because they haven't actually sinned yet? Some of the prior posts seem to indicate this with the distinction between original and actual sin. If so, does the child still need the work of Christ to be saved? It seems clear to me that if the child is saved, it is through Christ. The Scriptures do not seem to allow for a class of persons who do not need salvation, or who can attain salvation through their own lack of "actual" sin rather than through Christ. And, though less obvious, it also seems to me that even an infant who isn't intellectually aware of sin still rebels against God with all her being -- if she is not regenerate.
So, Hitler's life demonstrates that he was not elect; which means that he was not elect as an infant, either. The fact that he hadn't sinned yet as an infant means nothing - his non-election had already been decided by God in eternity past. If Adolf Hitler had died as an infant, he would have gone to Hell.
So, Hitler's life demonstrates that he was not elect; which means that he was not elect as an infant, either. The fact that he hadn't sinned yet as an infant means nothing - his non-election had already been decided by God in eternity past. If Adolf Hitler had died as an infant, he would have gone to Hell.
Richard, we don't even know this. How can we say with certainty that God, in His infinite mercy, has not elected all children who die in infancy? I think we err when we take the doctrine of election and try to cross every "T" and dot every "I". None of us know what has entered into the mind of God on this matter. We hope that he is merciful towards infants who die. In the absence of any definitive command we have no choice but to rest in His mercy.It's important to remember that election occurs not only before a person is born, not only before a person is conceived, but even before the creation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). So, when that infant is born within the stream of history, his or her election is already set, has already been decided by God. If the infant is elect, then, if it dies in infancy, it goes to be with God. If the dying infant is not elect, then it goes to Hell.
Richard, we don't even know this. How can we say with certainty that God, in His infinite mercy, has not elected all children who die in infancy? I think we err when we take the doctrine of election and try to cross every "T" and dot every "I". None of us know what has entered into the mind of God on this matter. We hope that he is merciful towards infants who die. In the absence of any definitive command we have no choice but to rest in His mercy.It's important to remember that election occurs not only before a person is born, not only before a person is conceived, but even before the creation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). So, when that infant is born within the stream of history, his or her election is already set, has already been decided by God. If the infant is elect, then, if it dies in infancy, it goes to be with God. If the dying infant is not elect, then it goes to Hell.
Richard, we don't even know this. How can we say with certainty that God, in His infinite mercy, has not elected all children who die in infancy? I think we err when we take the doctrine of election and try to cross every "T" and dot every "I". None of us know what has entered into the mind of God on this matter. We hope that he is merciful towards infants who die. In the absence of any definitive command we have no choice but to rest in His mercy.It's important to remember that election occurs not only before a person is born, not only before a person is conceived, but even before the creation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). So, when that infant is born within the stream of history, his or her election is already set, has already been decided by God. If the infant is elect, then, if it dies in infancy, it goes to be with God. If the dying infant is not elect, then it goes to Hell.
We do NOT know that God has or has not elected every infant who dies. Hence the confessional authors rightly left us with what Scripture does tell us - that all elect infants who die, die in the Lord. That is, in my estimation, a much easier thing to rest in than some hope (that is not as well founded) that a given infant who dies must have been elect because God is gracious. God's ways are not our ways, and despite the fact that we'd want every infant who dies to go to Heaven, it ain't necessarily so - for God is just as well as merciful, and if He chose to send any given infant, upon dying, to Hell, then that would be right.
I think we can bank on God's ultimate mercy and Christ's death is certainly sufficient to cover the inherited sin.
Does Christ's character in any way point to less than a merciful attitude toward infants?
Richard, we don't even know this. How can we say with certainty that God, in His infinite mercy, has not elected all children who die in infancy? I think we err when we take the doctrine of election and try to cross every "T" and dot every "I". None of us know what has entered into the mind of God on this matter. We hope that he is merciful towards infants who die. In the absence of any definitive command we have no choice but to rest in His mercy.
We do NOT know that God has or has not elected every infant who dies. Hence the confessional authors rightly left us with what Scripture does tell us - that all elect infants who die, die in the Lord. That is, in my estimation, a much easier thing to rest in than some hope (that is not as well founded) that a given infant who dies must have been elect because God is gracious. God's ways are not our ways, and despite the fact that we'd want every infant who dies to go to Heaven, it ain't necessarily so - for God is just as well as merciful, and if He chose to send any given infant, upon dying, to Hell, then that would be right.
Todd, I do not dispute the confessions. The LBCF says that elect infants dying in infancy are saved and I believe that. My reply to Richard was about all infants. Do all infants that die in infancy go to heaven? The confessions say, "No". Perhaps God has elected all infants that die in infancy. We'll never know on this side of eternity. But if only elect infants are saved who die in infancy, how can we comfort greiving parents with certainty? Is there any ironclad guarantee that believing families who experience this tragedy have regenerate infants? I want to believe that. Trust me. I do.
I think we can bank on God's ultimate mercy and Christ's death is certainly sufficient to cover the inherited sin.
Does Christ's character in any way point to less than a merciful attitude toward infants?
JD,
Christ's character and the Fathers character are one. They are one God "Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?
So if God was merciless to non-elect infants or infants of the non-elect in the OT He, to be consistent, he, who never changes, would be so in the New.
Is it merciless to have children/infants temporally slaughtered if their ultimate destination is eternal communion?
Well, the confessions don't actually say that NOT all infants that die in infancy go to heaven.
1689 LBC 10.3:
Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases
I do not believe the Word tells us that every infant dying in infancy goes to heaven - and as such, I can't advocate telling grieving parents this.