Psalm Singing???
- Thread starter Coram Deo
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*covers head*
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
so - just curious...you want to validate your perfect righteousness by this legalistic standard?
Do you consider non-EP heresy?
Would you deny fellowship to someone not EP?
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
That was rudish!
Why does everyone who find something more conservative then their own belief have to define it as legalistic?
I asked the question because a friend of mine and I have been discussing Psalmody and we were going through the history of the reformational church and past that.... He is getting closer to accepting Psalmody..... He asked me today how many church still hold to EP and I was unsure.....
It also became a curiousity question for me of how far the churches have declined......
As for if I think Non-EP is heresy.. No, but I find it to be a serious error and braking the second commandment of God.
Would you deny fellowship to someone not EP? Of course not! as per my friend who is currently non-ep nor would I deny fellowship if a church was not completely EP.. Though I do take point on the Revivalist Gospel-Song churches.. I dread going to church if I must go to a Gospel-Song church and no man should ever dread going to church.... But the Man centeredness of those songs and most of CCM today are grievious at best Blasphemy at worst... And belongs not in the house of the Lord.
But I would go to a church if it had say the Trinity Hymnal, though I might not sing those hymns. Luckly I go to a All EP church and when we move on soon the church we want to join ourselves to is a Reformed Baptist church that is currently 50/50 Trinity Psalter/Trinity Hymnal and is moving in an all EP direction. So to answer your question yes we will fellowship with the church that still sings hymns but am encourage that they are moving in an all EP direction.
Michael
Why does everyone who find something more conservative then their own belief have to define it as legalistic?
I asked the question because a friend of mine and I have been discussing Psalmody and we were going through the history of the reformational church and past that.... He is getting closer to accepting Psalmody..... He asked me today how many church still hold to EP and I was unsure.....
It also became a curiousity question for me of how far the churches have declined......
As for if I think Non-EP is heresy.. No, but I find it to be a serious error and braking the second commandment of God.
Would you deny fellowship to someone not EP? Of course not! as per my friend who is currently non-ep nor would I deny fellowship if a church was not completely EP.. Though I do take point on the Revivalist Gospel-Song churches.. I dread going to church if I must go to a Gospel-Song church and no man should ever dread going to church.... But the Man centeredness of those songs and most of CCM today are grievious at best Blasphemy at worst... And belongs not in the house of the Lord.
But I would go to a church if it had say the Trinity Hymnal, though I might not sing those hymns. Luckly I go to a All EP church and when we move on soon the church we want to join ourselves to is a Reformed Baptist church that is currently 50/50 Trinity Psalter/Trinity Hymnal and is moving in an all EP direction. So to answer your question yes we will fellowship with the church that still sings hymns but am encourage that they are moving in an all EP direction.
Michael
blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
Given what you said about non-EP breaking the second commandment (ie., being sin), I was a little surprised when you then wrote that you 'might not' (instead of would not) sing those hymns. To me, saying you 'might not' sing the hymns leaves open the possibility that you 'might' sing the hymns. It wasn't intended, but to me it'd be like saying "if I go to that church, I might not sin by singing those hymns...but I might".
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I hope you understand that my response was tied to the tone of your OP.
In other words - pot, kettle.
This is a presupposition and includes the conclusion that non-EP is somehow inferior to EP - I hope you can see how that might be non-irenic.
God commands the singing of Psalms. The over whelming majority of Christian churches in America do not sing the Psalms at all. The Reformed tradition is a little more obedient.
This is, indeed, a "decline in the church of God" as Michael originally stated. I would not understand if anyone on this board would disagree. God commands his church to sing the Psalms; his church refuses to obey; this is rebellious sin.
Do I err?
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
The proposition was "Psalm only" - see the OP.
I see your point - you're objecting to the OP's plasm's only. I'm gonna leave that alone for now.
Putting the EP issue aside, you would agree that the non-singing of the Psalms is rebellious sin correct?
**Mod. All the pots and kettles settle down.**
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I see your point - you're objecting to the OP's plasm's only. I'm gonna leave that alone for now.
Putting the EP issue aside, you would agree that the non-singing of the Psalms is rebellious sin correct?
yup - and I am chief of sinners...always seeking to repent and reform.
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
As far as I am concerned, there was no tone in my OP! I asked a question without in my opinion tone, sarcasm, etc...
I would hope and pray that you would consider God's Words more superior to mans words? Hence singing Psalms (God's Holy Word) is more superior to any man-made song, hence inferior. There is no presupposition about it. God's Word is Superior in everyway!!! I would rather Sing the only words that are perfect in everyway and non-flawed then sing thousand hymns with imperfect words made by man....
Michael
P.S. I am not sure what the whole Pot/Kettle thing was about. It sure flew over my head. I believe the correct use of the Pot/Kettle would be to say that someone is wrong for singing Man-made Songs even if I sing Man-made songs in worship (Corporate, Family, or Private), hence calling the the pot and the kettle black....
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
What I meant by that statement is that there is a number of Hymns in the Trinity Hymnal that are Psalms or even bad paraphrasing of the Psalms and I could in conscious sing those which is why I said "might", I could not sing those non psalm songs in good conscious.....
Michael
Michael
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Well - I will respect your intent, although I criticize the content...
I would hope and pray that you would consider God's Words more superior to mans words? Hence singing Psalms (God's Holy Word) is more superior to any man-made song, hence inferior. There is no presupposition about it. God's Word is Superior in everyway!!! I would rather Sing the only words that are perfect in everyway and non-flawed then sing thousand hymns with imperfect words made by man....
Michael
So - following your logic - I suppose you will henceforth only pray Scripture?
Wouldn't you rather:
thunaer and modified a bit by JD to make a point said:
?
With apologies to the mods - I was commenting on your statement that I was "rudish" - your OP seems rude to me, thus, pot-kettle.
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blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
The logic does not follow.... God has given us a book of Songs to sing which contains every possible emotion that we can express in worship, joy, sadness, lamentations, praise, etc There is nothing lacking in the book of Psalms that would require additions... In fact it contains every doctrine we have in the new testament also testifing that the Psalms are perfect to sing exclusively...
God has not given us a book of prayers (per say), and in addition we must be allowed to address to our Father particular needs when we bring him supplications and so prayer need not be so set.. I do not have a problem with set prayers in certain matters but certain particular needs must be prayed for. Now early in this post I said "God has not given us a book of prayers (Per say), But many of the Psalms are set prayers and can be used that way and in addition I believe that most of our prayers should be Infused with scriptural language and the best place for that would be from the book of Psalms though not exclusively from that book.. God has told us to sing Psalms and so we are confined to that book for singing, but he has not told us to pray exclusively from the psalms. So when I say that our prayers should be infused with scriptural language they can be infused with any portion of scripture.
I also believe that if one is going to have a prayerbook (Which I am not against), it should contain prayers that are 100% scripture language!!!
No offense to Sempers profession, but I would pray 1000 prayers in scripture language or from the book of psalms then hear the prayer "Lord, help me be all that I can be" army prayer.
So let us therefore "Hear the Word" (Sermon), "Read the Word" (Scripture Reading), "See the Word" (Sacraments), "Sing the Word" (Sing the Psalms), and "Pray the Word" (Pray in Scripture Language).
Michael
God has not given us a book of prayers (per say), and in addition we must be allowed to address to our Father particular needs when we bring him supplications and so prayer need not be so set.. I do not have a problem with set prayers in certain matters but certain particular needs must be prayed for. Now early in this post I said "God has not given us a book of prayers (Per say), But many of the Psalms are set prayers and can be used that way and in addition I believe that most of our prayers should be Infused with scriptural language and the best place for that would be from the book of Psalms though not exclusively from that book.. God has told us to sing Psalms and so we are confined to that book for singing, but he has not told us to pray exclusively from the psalms. So when I say that our prayers should be infused with scriptural language they can be infused with any portion of scripture.
I also believe that if one is going to have a prayerbook (Which I am not against), it should contain prayers that are 100% scripture language!!!
No offense to Sempers profession
, but I would pray 1000 prayers in scripture language or from the book of psalms then hear the prayer "Lord, help me be all that I can be" army prayer.So let us therefore "Hear the Word" (Sermon), "Read the Word" (Scripture Reading), "See the Word" (Sacraments), "Sing the Word" (Sing the Psalms), and "Pray the Word" (Pray in Scripture Language).
Michael
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Again - following your logic - if the Psalms are so perfect in terms of doctrine and emotion and they were used extensively by Christ and the writers of the NT - why infect your prayers with your worldly content? or in terms of Scriptural prayer - isn't the Lord's prayer sufficient?
You are also presupposing the meaning of "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" as definitively and exclusively the Psalms of David. Please give your rationale.
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
Because we are told to bring our worldly content and needs into our prayers.. we are not told to do that with the Psalms....
SoldierOfTheRock
Puritan Board Freshman
So... the statistic of how many churches hold to EP... have we a number?
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
Let me ask you a question?
What is this:
I will be back in alittle while for your answer.. I need to take care of my daughter....
Michael
What is this:
I will be back in alittle while for your answer.. I need to take care of my daughter....
Michael
*****Agreed. The moderators are in a no nonsense mood today. This thread was on the above topic. Folks can start other threads for the umteenth time on some aspect of the EP question (see here on mixed modes of worship for one) but I would suggest getting to this topic and not go over old ground yet another time. But if you must; do so under a thread appropriately titled.******
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Ephesians 5:19
addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,
Not just with the Psalms (although they are included), but with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs that we compose using all our heart, just as we do with prayer.
edited to add - oops, just saw the mod note - I am done - Michael - feel free to extract these posts to start another thread if so desired.
This will get back on topic now or I'm starting to delete posts. See above for what you need to do.
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
Thanks Gentlemen.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Sean McDonald posted a while back listing the denominations which adhere to exclusive psalmody today here, which may be helpful in answering this question (one could refer to the list and review each denomination / individual congregation listed and count them up). Since he wrote that post, I am aware of at least one EP denomination that has been formed since - the Westminster Presbyterian Church in the United States. Brian Hanley's Denominational Database might also be helpful. Henry Sikkema once had a website which showed "Psalm Singing Churches of the World" (which was a great concept) but it was not complete and is now only accessible (in part) via the Internet Archive.
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