Book Recommendations: The Gospel and American Politics

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CAStratman

Puritan Board Freshman
Hello,

I'm looking for some book recs on the subject of the relationship between the Gospel/Christianity to politics, especially contemporary American politics. Specifically, I'm curious about the perils of voting, political parties and their discontents, relation of church/state, social issues from a Gospel perspective, etc. But anything you all have to share, I appreciate!

CS
 
Grudem’s tome is a gateway. You will not agree with everything but it introduces you to the issues and sources
 
For church/state relations, "Messiah the Prince" by William Symington, and James Bannerman "The Church of Christ" has good material.
 
This should do the trick. Always good to revisit our roots:

Political Sermons of the American Founding Era: 1730–1805​



BTW, there are no perils to voting is you mean by ballot. It's simply a mode. Voting to choose a ruler or rulers is a biblical concept and rooted in our very creation as well as by divine law (See Exo18:21-23; Deut 17:14, 15).
 
This should do the trick. Always good to revisit our roots:

Political Sermons of the American Founding Era: 1730–1805​



BTW, there are no perils to voting is you mean by ballot. It's simply a mode. Voting to choose a ruler or rulers is a biblical concept and rooted in our very creation as well as by divine law (See Exo18:21-23; Deut 17:14, 15).

It is not immediately clear that those verses are talking about voting. It just says the people of Israel will provide judges. It does not explain how they will do that.
 
The scottish commissioners to the Westminster Assembly would disagree with them. Especially Samuel Rutherford.

As I have thought about it a little more. There is a work published by William Findley call "observations on the two sons of oil". He actually got Samuel Wylie to recant his work because he was so persuaded that he was wrong about mediatorial dominion and his understanding of the American system of government.

 
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That is logically possible, but the text does not say that. I can think of a number of scenarios where a tribe (or a clan; again, the text is not clear) sends a judge or appoints a judge, yet in a way that is not "voting."
I am almost done compiling all the scripture that explicitly say that the people "made so and so" king. Here is just one:

2Ch 33:25 KJV But the people of the land slew all them that had conspired against king Amon; and the people of the land made Josiah his son king in his stead.
 
I am almost done compiling all the scripture that explicitly say that the people "made so and so" king. Here is just one:

2Ch 33:25 KJV But the people of the land slew all them that had conspired against king Amon; and the people of the land made Josiah his son king in his stead.

That does not have to be voting. It could be a mob of people saying, "We want you to be the king." Is there a metaphysical form of representation involved? Every good constitutional monarchist believes in representation from the people. Sure, but voting in the modern liberal democracy sense? No.
 
That does not have to be voting. It could be a mob of people saying, "We want you to be the king." Is there a metaphysical form of representation involved? Every good constitutional monarchist believes in representation from the people. Sure, but voting in the modern liberal democracy sense? No.
So are you saying Josiah was appointed by a mob?

The mode of election does not matter. Whether it's by ballot, a verbal yay or Nay, a universal "God save the king!" or a show of hands. It's the same means by which rulers are appointed, consent of the governed.
 
So are you saying Josiah was appointed by a mob?

No. The people (still undefined) confirmed his kingship, which was already his by birthright. As Rutherford said, " The king is above the people by eminence of derived authority as watchman, but he is inferior to them in fountain-power, as the effect to the cause."
The mode of election does not matter. Where it's by ballot, a yay or Nay, or a show of hands. It's the same means by which rulers are appointed, consent of the governed.

You are still assuming what you are trying to prove. Yes, the people (whatever that means) confirmed the kingship (or the judicial authority). What Scripture explicitly does not say is how they did so. You say "mode of election." That is specifically what I do not grant.
 
No. The people (still undefined) confirmed his kingship, which was already his by birthright. As Rutherford said, " The king is above the people by eminence of derived authority as watchman, but he is inferior to them in fountain-power, as the effect to the cause."


You are still assuming what you are trying to prove. Yes, the people (whatever that means) confirmed the kingship (or the judicial authority). What Scripture explicitly does not say is how they did so. You say "mode of election." That is specifically what I do not grant.

According to scripture "The people" is defined as...everyone, including the rulers of hundreds, fifties, tens, the seventy elders and everyone in between. Even Saul could not be confirmed king until even the children of belial signed on to him (1 Sam 10:25-27; 11:12-15):

Numbers 11:16, 17- 16And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. 17And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.


Deuteronomy 1:9-15- 9And I spake unto you at that time, saying, I am not able to bear you myself alone: 10The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude. 11(The LORD God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!) 12How can I myself alone bear your cumbrance, and your burden, and your strife? 13Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you. 14And ye answered me, and said, The thing which thou hast spoken is good for us to do. 15So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.


Deuteronomy 17:14, 15- 14“When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,’ 15you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses, one from among your countrymen you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your countryman.



Judges 9:6- And all the men of Shechem gathered together, and all the house of Millo, and went, and made Abimelech king, by the plain of the pillar that was in Shechem.



Judges 11:11- Then Jephthah went with the elders of Gilead, and the people made him head and captain over them: and Jephthah uttered all his words before the LORD in Mizpeh.



1 Samuel 11:15- And all the people went to Gilgal; and there they made Saul king before the LORD in Gilgal; and there they sacrificed sacrifices of peace offerings before the LORD; and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly.



2 Sam 2:4- And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. And they told David, saying, That the men of Jabeshgilead were they that buried Saul.



2 Samuel 5:1-3- 1Then all the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and said, “Here we are, your own flesh and blood. 2Even in times past, while Saul was king over us, you were the one who led Israel out and brought them back. And to you the LORD said, ‘You will shepherd My people Israel, and you will be ruler over them.’ 3So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, where King David made with them a covenant before the LORD. And they anointed him king over Israel.



1 Kings 1:39- And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, God save king Solomon.



1 Kings 12:1- And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for all Israel were come to Shechem to make him king.



1 Kings 12:20- And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.



1 Kings 16:16- And the people that were encamped heard say, Zimri hath conspired, and hath also slain the king: wherefore all Israel made Omri, the captain of the host, king over Israel that day in the camp.



1 Kings 16:21, 22- Then were the people of Israel divided into two parts: half of the people followed Tibni the son of Ginath, to make him king; and half followed Omri. But the people that followed Omri prevailed against the people that followed Tibni the son of Ginath: so Tibni died, and Omri reigned.



2 Kings 10:5- and he that was over the house, and he that was over the city, the elders also, and the bringers up of the children, sent to Jehu, saying, We are thy servants, and will do all that thou shalt bid us; we will not make any king: do thou that which is good in thine eyes.



2 Kings 11:4, 12- And the seventh year Jehoiada sent and fetched the rulers over hundreds, with the captains and the guard, and brought them to him into the house of the LORD, and made a covenant with them, and took an oath of them in the house of the LORD, and shewed them the king's son. and he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king.



2 Kings 14:21- And all the people of Judah took Azariah, which was sixteen years old, and made him king instead of his father Amaziah.



2 Kings 21:24- And the people of the land slew all them that had conspired against king Amon; and the people of the land made Josiah his son king in his stead.



1 Chron 11:1-3- Then all Israel gathered themselves to David unto Hebron, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. 2And moreover in time past, even when Saul was king, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD thy God said unto thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel. 3Therefore came all the elders of Israel to the king to Hebron; and David made a covenant with them in Hebron before the LORD; and they anointed David king over Israel, according to the word of the LORD by Samuel.



1 Chronicles 12:23, 38- And these are the numbers of the bands that were ready armed to the war, and came to David to Hebron, to turn the kingdom of Saul to him, according to the word of the LORD…All these men of war, that could keep rank, came with a perfect heart to Hebron, to make David king over all Israel: and all the rest also of Israel were of one heart to make David king.



1 Chronicles 29:21-24- 21And they sacrificed sacrifices unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings unto the LORD, on the morrow after that day, even a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel: 22And did eat and drink before the LORD on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the LORD to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest. 23Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him. 24And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of king David, submitted themselves unto Solomon the king.



2 Chronicles 10:1-And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for to Shechem were all Israel come to make him king.



2 Chronicles 22:1- And the inhabitants of Jerusalem made Ahaziah his youngest son king in his stead: for the band of men that came with the Arabians to the camp had slain all the eldest. So Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah reigned.



2 Chronicles 23:1-3, 11-13, 20- 1And in the seventh year Jehoiada strengthened himself, and took the captains of hundreds, Azariah the son of Jeroham, and Ishmael the son of Jehohanan, and Azariah the son of Obed, and Maaseiah the son of Adaiah, and Elishaphat the son of Zichri, into covenant with him. 2And they went about in Judah, and gathered the Levites out of all the cities of Judah, and the chief of the fathers of Israel, and they came to Jerusalem. 3And all the congregation made a covenant with the king in the house of God. And he said unto them, Behold, the king's son shall reign, as the LORD hath said of the sons of David11Then they brought out the king's son, and put upon him the crown, and gave him the testimony, and made him king. And Jehoiada and his sons anointed him, and said, God save the king. Now when Athaliah heard the noise of the people running and praising the king, she came to the people into the house of the LORD: 13And she looked, and, behold, the king stood at his pillar at the entering in, and the princes and the trumpets by the king: and all the people of the land rejoiced, and sounded with trumpets, also the singers with instruments of musick, and such as taught to sing praise. Then Athaliah rent her clothes, and said, Treason, Treason…20And he took the captains of hundreds, and the nobles, and the governors of the people, and all the people of the land, and brought down the king from the house of the LORD: and they came through the high gate into the king's house, and set the king upon the throne of the kingdom. 21And all the people of the land rejoiced: and the city was quiet, after that they had slain Athaliah with the sword.


2 Chronicles 26:1- 1Then all the people of Judah took Uzziah, who was sixteen years old, and made him king in the room of his father Amaziah.



2 Chronicles 36:1- 1Then the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and made him king in his father's stead in Jerusalem.
 
According to scripture "The people" is defined as...everyone, including the rulers of hundreds, fifties, tens, the seventy elders and everyone in between. Even Saul could not be confirmed king until even the children of belial signed on to him (1 Sam 10:25-27; 11:12-15):

Numbers 11:16, 17- 16And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. 17And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.


Deuteronomy 1:9-15- 9And I spake unto you at that time, saying, I am not able to bear you myself alone: 10The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude. 11(The LORD God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!) 12How can I myself alone bear your cumbrance, and your burden, and your strife? 13Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you. 14And ye answered me, and said, The thing which thou hast spoken is good for us to do. 15So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.


Deuteronomy 17:14, 15- 14“When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,’ 15you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses, one from among your countrymen you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your countryman.



Judges 9:6- And all the men of Shechem gathered together, and all the house of Millo, and went, and made Abimelech king, by the plain of the pillar that was in Shechem.



Judges 11:11- Then Jephthah went with the elders of Gilead, and the people made him head and captain over them: and Jephthah uttered all his words before the LORD in Mizpeh.



1 Samuel 11:15- And all the people went to Gilgal; and there they made Saul king before the LORD in Gilgal; and there they sacrificed sacrifices of peace offerings before the LORD; and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly.



2 Sam 2:4- And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. And they told David, saying, That the men of Jabeshgilead were they that buried Saul.



2 Samuel 5:1-3- 1Then all the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and said, “Here we are, your own flesh and blood. 2Even in times past, while Saul was king over us, you were the one who led Israel out and brought them back. And to you the LORD said, ‘You will shepherd My people Israel, and you will be ruler over them.’ 3So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, where King David made with them a covenant before the LORD. And they anointed him king over Israel.



1 Kings 1:39- And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, God save king Solomon.



1 Kings 12:1- And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for all Israel were come to Shechem to make him king.



1 Kings 12:20- And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.



1 Kings 16:16- And the people that were encamped heard say, Zimri hath conspired, and hath also slain the king: wherefore all Israel made Omri, the captain of the host, king over Israel that day in the camp.



1 Kings 16:21, 22- Then were the people of Israel divided into two parts: half of the people followed Tibni the son of Ginath, to make him king; and half followed Omri. But the people that followed Omri prevailed against the people that followed Tibni the son of Ginath: so Tibni died, and Omri reigned.



2 Kings 10:5- and he that was over the house, and he that was over the city, the elders also, and the bringers up of the children, sent to Jehu, saying, We are thy servants, and will do all that thou shalt bid us; we will not make any king: do thou that which is good in thine eyes.



2 Kings 11:4, 12- And the seventh year Jehoiada sent and fetched the rulers over hundreds, with the captains and the guard, and brought them to him into the house of the LORD, and made a covenant with them, and took an oath of them in the house of the LORD, and shewed them the king's son. and he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king.



2 Kings 14:21- And all the people of Judah took Azariah, which was sixteen years old, and made him king instead of his father Amaziah.



2 Kings 21:24- And the people of the land slew all them that had conspired against king Amon; and the people of the land made Josiah his son king in his stead.



1 Chron 11:1-3- Then all Israel gathered themselves to David unto Hebron, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. 2And moreover in time past, even when Saul was king, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD thy God said unto thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel. 3Therefore came all the elders of Israel to the king to Hebron; and David made a covenant with them in Hebron before the LORD; and they anointed David king over Israel, according to the word of the LORD by Samuel.



1 Chronicles 12:23, 38- And these are the numbers of the bands that were ready armed to the war, and came to David to Hebron, to turn the kingdom of Saul to him, according to the word of the LORD…All these men of war, that could keep rank, came with a perfect heart to Hebron, to make David king over all Israel: and all the rest also of Israel were of one heart to make David king.



1 Chronicles 29:21-24- 21And they sacrificed sacrifices unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings unto the LORD, on the morrow after that day, even a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel: 22And did eat and drink before the LORD on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the LORD to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest. 23Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him. 24And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of king David, submitted themselves unto Solomon the king.



2 Chronicles 10:1-And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for to Shechem were all Israel come to make him king.



2 Chronicles 22:1- And the inhabitants of Jerusalem made Ahaziah his youngest son king in his stead: for the band of men that came with the Arabians to the camp had slain all the eldest. So Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah reigned.



2 Chronicles 23:1-3, 11-13, 20- 1And in the seventh year Jehoiada strengthened himself, and took the captains of hundreds, Azariah the son of Jeroham, and Ishmael the son of Jehohanan, and Azariah the son of Obed, and Maaseiah the son of Adaiah, and Elishaphat the son of Zichri, into covenant with him. 2And they went about in Judah, and gathered the Levites out of all the cities of Judah, and the chief of the fathers of Israel, and they came to Jerusalem. 3And all the congregation made a covenant with the king in the house of God. And he said unto them, Behold, the king's son shall reign, as the LORD hath said of the sons of David11Then they brought out the king's son, and put upon him the crown, and gave him the testimony, and made him king. And Jehoiada and his sons anointed him, and said, God save the king. Now when Athaliah heard the noise of the people running and praising the king, she came to the people into the house of the LORD: 13And she looked, and, behold, the king stood at his pillar at the entering in, and the princes and the trumpets by the king: and all the people of the land rejoiced, and sounded with trumpets, also the singers with instruments of musick, and such as taught to sing praise. Then Athaliah rent her clothes, and said, Treason, Treason…20And he took the captains of hundreds, and the nobles, and the governors of the people, and all the people of the land, and brought down the king from the house of the LORD: and they came through the high gate into the king's house, and set the king upon the throne of the kingdom. 21And all the people of the land rejoiced: and the city was quiet, after that they had slain Athaliah with the sword.


2 Chronicles 26:1- 1Then all the people of Judah took Uzziah, who was sixteen years old, and made him king in the room of his father Amaziah.



2 Chronicles 36:1- 1Then the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and made him king in his father's stead in Jerusalem.

All true. None of that is voting in the sense used in this thread.
 
1. The people today are stupid.
2. The people are governed by passion, not principle.
3. Voting machines are rigged.
4. Dead people vote.
I feel you man, but, some things to consider:

#1 Granted (and an added lol) , but that's always been the case across the board of every government. Stupid at times, but no society intended to destroy itself by creating a government. I think we don't give enough credit to God in creating in man a principle of self preservation in his ability to create government for his defense.
#2 I think it's a mix both, especially when people are passionate about principles and lose sight of trying to be persuasive and instead become argumentative. Principled without passion and passioned without principle are extremes to avoid.
#3 I don't trust them either.
#4 I agree, but that was unprecedented until the end of 2020. So this is a new thing due to the unique circumstances the pandemic (or rather the smoke screen the government created/used) brought.
 
I feel you man, but, some things to consider:

#1 Granted (and an added lol) , but that's always been the case across the board of every government. Stupid at times, but no society intended to destroy itself by creating a government. I think we don't give enough credit to God in creating in man a principle of self preservation in his ability to create government for his defense.
#2 I think it's a mix both, especially when people are passionate about principles and lose sight of trying to be persuasive and instead become argumentative. Principled without passion and passioned without principle are extremes to avoid.
#3 I don't trust them either.
#4 I agree, but that was unprecedented until the end of 2020. So this is a new thing due to the unique circumstances the pandemic (or rather the smoke screen the government created/used) brought.
I am not against voting, per se. Rather, I am acknowledging dangers. All governments have dangers unique to themselves. Aristotle covers this in Politics.
 
Hello,

I'm looking for some book recs on the subject of the relationship between the Gospel/Christianity to politics, especially contemporary American politics. Specifically, I'm curious about the perils of voting, political parties and their discontents, relation of church/state, social issues from a Gospel perspective, etc. But anything you all have to share, I appreciate!

CS
Rousas John (R. J.) Rushdoony (1916-2001):
POLITICS OF GUILT AND PITY;
THE MESSIANIC CHARACTER OF AMERICAN EDUCATION.
I have read these two, and highly recommend; I have not read the two attached:
 

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The scottish commissioners to the Westminster Assembly would disagree with them. Especially Samuel Rutherford.

As I have thought about it a little more. There is a work published by William Findley call "observations on the two sons of oil". He actually got Samuel Wylie to recant his work because he was so persuaded that he was wrong about mediatorial dominion and his understanding of the American system of government.

Wylie's Two Sons of Oil is still a classic defense of dissent from secular constitutionalism. The fact that Wylie later abandoned his position was not accepted by most of his RP brethren (who castigated him by publicly demonstrating his contradictions in a brief work called Sentiments of the Rev. Samuel B. Wylie, A.M. in 1803, respecting civil magistracy and the government of the United States : contrasted with sentiments of the Rev. Samuel B. Wylie, D.D. in 1832, on the same subjects. - "'The Doctor' has evidently lowered, in great degree, the standard by which he once thought civil government should be tested. . . . On viewing the direct contradictions . . . between Mr. Wylie and Dr. Wylie we cannot help saying, with the Patriarch Jacob, ‘Unstable as water,’ and with the Apostle James, ‘A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.’”). It should also be noted that Findley had led the convention that rewrote the Pennsylvania constitution which was often referenced for examples of the perils of a secular constitution in Two Sons of Oil, and Wylie's original work heavily criticized the US Constitution for allowing slavery which Findley admitted he benefitted from while residing in homes with slave labor (without being a slave owner himself - see pp.230-243 for his long justification of American slavery), disputed Two Sons of Oil so vehemently . In Findley's work, he doesn't really address the Reformed Presbyterian/Covenanter arguments - he just keeps saying things like "they laboured under mistakes by trusting to tradition" of which he is the only one left alive able to correct them (see Preface pp.v-vii) and, rather than refuting the long held Biblical principles underlying Two Sons of Oil, he often simply lays out his reasons why American federalism is the ideal, preferring the Enlightened political views of Locke and Paine and the church polity of Owen and Zwingli to the testimony of his Reformed Presbyterian brethren and forefathers. And at times he flat out gets history wrong (p.224, for example).

Both Wylie and Findley divisively defected from the Reformed Presbyterian/Covenanter church. Findley abandoned the position held by the RP that the covenants (National and SL&C) were binding on America and then actively pushed for the union between the Seceders and Covenanters to form the Associate Reformed Church which took the position that “Magistracy is derived from God as the Almighty Creator and Governor of the world, and not from Christ as Mediator” (that is that since all government derives directly from God it does not need to be overtly Christian). The RP's who did not agree were left out, splitting the RP in America. But the latter eventually rebuilt their presbytery with help from their brethren in Scotland. Then when Wylie abandoned the Covenanter position later, it created another division (between the so-called “old lights” and “new lights”), a division which never healed and led to another permanent split in the RP.

I am curious on what grounds are you basing your assertion that the the Scots commissioners (and especially Rutherford) would disagree with Reformed Presbyterians/Covenanters regarding political dissent and disengagement by Christians. These men were, after all, Reformed Presbyterians/Covenanters. Rutherford was not in favor of religious liberty - people often twist parts of Lex Rex to argue otherwise, but he is very clear in Due Right of Presbyteries that the civil magistrate has a duty to both support and enforce true religion (see also his A Free Disputation against Pretended Liberty of Conscience and his harsh criticisms of such experiments in the American colonies by the likes of Roger Williams, Thomas Hooker, and the New England Congregationalists). I believe it is very reasonable to claim that, had Gillespie and Henderson lived as long as Rutherford, they, too, would have been staunch Protesters and would not have abandoned their covenantal obligations as Wylie and Findley did. The Scots commissioners did, after all, contribute to the writing and adoption of Chapters 23 and 31 of the WCF - I doubt there is anything in their writings that would support the American revisions allowing for so-called separation of Church and State. You may not agree with the traditional views of the RP/Covenanters, but it seems very odd to go to Rutherford to support doing so.
 
As is often the case in these conversations, a lot of different issues are being confused. Case in point: the notion that Christ rules the nations as the mediatorial king ought not to be equated with political dissent. I hold to mediatorial kingship, as did many divines in the seventeenth century, but not to political dissent, as I believe that the latter view is unbiblical and unconfessional. And the version of mediatorial kingship that I hold is compatible with the confessional notion that civil government is originally founded in nature and thus does not have to be Christian in order to be legitimate. Given that Christ is head over all things to the church, however, the civil government should submit to him as the one to whom all power in heaven and on earth has been given.
 
Rushdoony responses were fascinating though I am equally interested in Moyers here. It has been several years since I've seen this clip. In my lifetime we've gone to where a known partisan, left-of-center journalist could actually have a non-gotcha interview with a near opposite. Moyers certainly was not lobbing softballs.

We've gone from that to the infamous Cathy Newman interview of Jordan Peterson where it seemed she was just trying to impress her friends with "so what your saying" talking points that he was more than prepared for.
 
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