David Taylor
Puritan Board Freshman
Where in Scripture do we derive to notion of Psalms only?
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Where in Scripture do we derive to notion of Psalms only?
Psalms, Hymns, Spiritual songsI think the question is where do we derive the notion of anything else besides the Psalms? Everyone agrees we ought to sing Psalms, right? So then the question is where in Scripture are we commanded to sing anything else?
A good sermon series on this can be found here (the EP part starts half way down the page): https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....ord=Gospel+Worship&keyworddesc=Gospel+Worship
Psalms, Hymns, Spiritual songs
So what about songs made from other places in Scripture?And that means?
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Colossians teaches us that "psalms, hymns, spiritual songs" are the Word of God that should dwell in us richly in all wisdom.
Word of God = Scripture
Wisdom = All true wisdom comes from God.
Teaching and admonishing one another - Are we supposed to do that with man's word or God's word? God's word.
Not only this psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs are often used words in the Psalms themselves to describe types of Psalms.
As for spiritual songs? What makes a song spiritual? Your intent, emotion,etc? No. The Holy Spirit makes a song spiritual. The song must be "of the Spirit".
Finally, I'd listen to the sermon I provided above that specifically addresses this phrase: https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1110191125271
So what about songs made from other places in Scripture?
So what about songs made from other places in Scripture?
As much as I'd love spending my whole day answering your questions , really every question or thing you will bring up here is answered in the sermons I have provided.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....ord=Gospel+Worship&keyworddesc=Gospel+Worship
Thanks I'll have a look.As much as I'd love spending my whole day answering your questions , really every question or thing you will bring up here is answered in the sermons I have provided.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....ord=Gospel+Worship&keyworddesc=Gospel+Worship
The 1650 psalter app is a good place to start, since it has text and recordings of every psalm.On this topic, how do you know what to sing with the Psalms? Where would I find a Psalter that has music with it?
I don't have a smartphone or tablet (I know, I know...) is there a different way to get this?The 1650 psalter app is a good place to start, since it has text and recordings of every psalm.
I don't have a smartphone or tablet (I know, I know...) is there a different way to get this?
But where is the music?Here, from the Free Church of Scotland is the Sing Psalms psalter, with the Scottish Psalter of 1650.
Check out The Book Of Psalms For Worship by Crown & Covenant.But where is the music?
Unfortunately they don't make a staff edition available.But where is the music?
Unfortunately they don't make a staff edition available.
Where in Scripture do we derive the notion of Psalms only?
Check out The Book Of Psalms For Worship by Crown & Covenant.
They have quality audio albums to accompany their Psalter.
This is a good and fair question. But I think when Paul says Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual songs, he obviously means more than the 150 Psalms. Why else would he make the distinction? And what about songs, if you want to make the inspired argument, that come from other portions of Scripture?Where in Scripture do we derive the notion that we can sing man-made songs?
This was a question my son asked me earlier this evening.
This is a good and fair question. But I think when Paul says Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual songs, he obviously means more than the 150 Psalms. Why else would he make the distinction? And what about songs, if you want to make the inspired argument, that come from other portions of Scripture?
That actually doesn't answer the question. If, as you argue, the Psalms contain the three types, that still doesn't get you Psalms exclusively. What about other portions of Scripture? How do we know that Paul was, in fact, referring to Psalms that could be used as Hymns and Spiritual songs? Is that just an inference, which causes issues, or is that known?It's quite common in scripture to use three almost synonymous words to convey a single idea, or perhaps three aspects of the same thing (e.g. "forgiving iniquity, transgression and sin"). The book of Psalms contains psalms (e.g. Psalm 8), hymns (e.g. Psalm 116), and songs (e.g. Psalm 45) - there are fine distinctions between these, but to all intents and purposes for the use of the church they are practically synonymous.
The Greek words Paul used which correspond to psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, are inscribed above the Psalms in the Septuagint version that he utilized in his ministry. So the EP argument is not simply "the Greek hymnos can refer to certain psalms", but "the Greek hymnos is the normative way in the edition of Scripture that the apostle himself used to refer to certain psalms".That actually doesn't answer the question. If, as you argue, the Psalms contain the three types, that still doesn't get you Psalms exclusively. What about other portions of Scripture? How do we know that Paul was, in fact, referring to Psalms that could be used as Hymns and Spiritual songs? Is that just an inference, which causes issues, or is that known?
Where in Scripture do we derive to notion of Psalms only?
The Greek words The psalter dates to the time of Solomon's temple, its earliest song to Moses, and its final compilation to the era of Ezra the Scribe. So Paul was merely exhorting to the continuance of a 1300 year tradition in the Church. There's not any evidence to my knowledge that any song but those in the psalter formed a regular part of the public worship of God in those days.
Another problem I see is that if the Psalter was indeed used exclusively both NT and OT then they would have had specific music. Should that same music not also be mandated? Do we have that music? If not, is not adding different tunes going against the very principles that EP says it upholds?The obvious questions for this position (which is standard in EP) are "Which psalter?" and "In what other context than public worship were these psalms transmitted prior to being incorporated into the canonical psalter, given that (as you correctly state) the present psalter dates from some time after the exile?
The first psalm to be written, as you say, was that of Moses (Psalm 90). In what context was it sung prior to the formation of the psalter? Is it plausible that it was never sung in worship prior to the inspired collector adding it to the canonical book? Likewise 2 Samuel 22, which forms the basis for Psalm 18. Was the first time it was sung when it became part of an official written "hymnscroll" in the temple? Would it have been sinful to sing 2 Sam 22 or Ps 90 in worship prior to that time?
And when was that? Did David have a collection of his own psalms? The subscript to Psalm 72 suggests that there was an early collection of the Prayers of David (3-72), but that is certainly not the only pre-existing collection (the Elohistic psalter covers 42-83, bound together by a notable preference for Elohim rather than Yahweh and adding the psalms of Asaph to those of David). The subscript suggest that it was collected after David's death. There is a Korahite collection, as well as the Songs of Ascents, which cover Psalms 120-134. Books 4-5 seem likely to be a later addition, perhaps after the whole present psalter was arranged around a set of distinctly post-exilic themes (see O. Palmer Robertson's The Flow of the Psalms). What is more, there are Davidic psalms included in all the layers of the composition of the final psalter. Where were these psalms being sung, if they were not part of the then-canonical collection?? And where did the non-canonical "Psalm 151" come from, recorded in most copies of the Septuagint and in Hebrew form at Qumran?
At the very least, we have to say that "the Psalter" (as we recognize the term) did not exist in the Solomonic era, though "a psalter" very likely did. That psalter was added to and edited in a variety of ways up to an after the Babylonian exile, including "new songs" that were newly written to address the development of redemptive history and "old psalms" (including some by David) that had not been included in the original version but had carried on being transmitted (most likely by being sung in some worship context).The most obvious explanation is that "exclusive psalmody" was not practiced in the Old Testament until after the return from Babylon, at least not as currently understood. "David's prayers" probably existed as one psalter alongside several others, which may well have included other psalms that were not chosen for inclusion in the final canonical version (just as there were other Davidic psalms not included in "David's prayers").
That doesn't prove that EP is unbiblical or wrong, or that we shouldn't perhaps sing more psalms than we do, but it does highlight the fact that the argument is a whole lot more complicated than "where is Scripture do we derive the notion that we can sing man-made songs?" or "Paul was merely exhorting to the continuance of a 1300 year tradition in the Church."
God's given us the words, not the musical notes.Another problem I see is that if the Psalter was indeed used exclusively both NT and OT then they would have had specific music. Should that same music not also be mandated? Do we have that music? If not, is not adding different tunes going against the very principles that EP says it upholds?