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Would you agree it was methodological in nature, his use of post Kantian philosophy? And I only brought up Barth as an example.
Sorry, yeah neither would I. I mean pretty much what said. I do think he utilized the structure of their arguments, which would in a sense be methodological.I wouldn't know exactly what a Kantian method is. He uses Kantian concepts ('limiting term,' 'concrete universal,' 'preconditions of intelligibility). That's not a method. It doesn't mean he was a Kantian, to be fair. I don't think he was. But it did structure how he presented the existence of God. He *had* to talk in terms of precondition of intelligibility.
That's a problem for the guy on the street. He's not going to follow it. Contrast it with the Kalam argument. It's fairly simple to follow.
I have not. Thanks for the tip.Have you read Dr. Edgar's paper on the subject? Well worth the read. Again it seems to me that his critique of Schaeffer was the same as Carnell.
It's fairly simple to follow.
It’s very easy to follow, I just don’t like where it leads.
As to my other comment on "methodology," Roderick Chisholm wrote The Problem of the Criterion. He didn't address this question on TAG (since no one outside of Reformed circles is aware of it), but it bears on it. I might develop it later.
I would be interested in that.
It seems to me that the problem only arises when we treat the two questions as reffering to the same things. They refer to two different things. In Wittgensteinian language we're mixing language games and getting a confusion. A method is not the same thing as stating a true statement. Therefore they can't have a one to one relation.The problem of the criterion addresses what happens when we demand a particular method prior to knowledge, which turns into justifying the method, but then we would need a justification for the justification, ad infinitum
https://www.iep.utm.edu/criterio/
But they are aware of transcendental arguments.I just take it as it stands. You can't traverse an actual infinite (George Cantor proved that).
As to my other comment on "methodology," Roderick Chisholm wrote The Problem of the Criterion. He didn't address this question on TAG (since no one outside of Reformed circles is aware of it), but it bears on it. I might develop it later.
Demanding a method prior to knowledge, which I haven't said (that I know of), is not what Vantillians are about it's a method for defending the faith
Perhaps the problem could be solved by saying that asking for an account might be, ?, more of a meta epistemological question? Because that would make two different questions. If I ask whether something is right or wrong verses why it's right or wrong seem like two different questions.I am using "method" loosely, and any time Van Tillians are asking someone to account for how they know things, that is exactly what they are doing.
I think there's good wisdom here. I don't know that it escapes the OP. But I have no problem asking people "So your problem is the Bible makes my God out to be a monster, an exclusivist, Correct? But your worldview is exclusivist, also. Have you ever considered how often science gets it wrong? Or how scientists are baffled by the mysterious or miraculous?"I generally don't use the term pressupossiton because there's too much to unpack with that term, I use assumptions.
Practically I try to gently move the conversation to the deeper issues involved and then I get a little more harder with the questions. Like why can they bring in their assumptions (religious, philosophical, scientific, etc.) But I can't? When they cry that they're not doing that I'll try to show them that they are.
The conversation can develop any number of directions from here. That's why I say Van Til gave us a method of doing apologetics first, not so much an argument. But the method can be applied to any situation. So in conclusion they're being just as circular, in the broad sense, as I am and if they can do it so can I. Is that better at answering your questions?
Great post. Yeah take them to scripture to show them their assumptions are wrong.I think there's good wisdom here. I don't know that it escapes the OP. But I have no problem asking people "So your problem is the Bible makes my God out to be a monster, an exclusivist, Correct? But your worldview is exclusivist, also. Have you ever considered how often science gets it wrong? Or how scientists are baffled by the mysterious or miraculous?"
Or for the person who is ok with any and all views: "So all thoughts about God are correct? Nothing is out of bounds? NOTHING?"
I've often wondered if Kreeft didn't accidentally give a shout out to Van Til here. A tiny one.
I think that I'm not understanding the OP then. I don't see how scripture "bogs" anything down? To have debate about the bible involves the bible, what it says etc. You can't do anything else. Maybe phrase the question more specifically so I can answer. Thanks, nice discussion though.I think there's good wisdom here. I don't know that it escapes the OP. But I have no problem asking people "So your problem is the Bible makes my God out to be a monster, an exclusivist, Correct? But your worldview is exclusivist, also. Have you ever considered how often science gets it wrong? Or how scientists are baffled by the mysterious or miraculous?"
Or for the person who is ok with any and all views: "So all thoughts about God are correct? Nothing is out of bounds? NOTHING?"
I've often wondered if Kreeft didn't accidentally give a shout out to Van Til here. A tiny one.
To have debate about the bible involves the bible, what it says etc. You can't do anything else.
That makes more sense. But why should we presups not use evidences?I think what he is getting at is that would involve evidences (e.g., resolving bible contradictions, archealogy, etc) than worldview commitments.
That makes more sense. But why should we presups not use evidences?
Ok but a proper way to use worldview and evidences is to examine the context (worldview) that the evidences are being examined by. A naturalist might agree that Christ rose from the grave but that it was a freak accident and nothing more. There are no uniterpreted facts.No one says you can't, but when you do that you will have to evaluate the evidences and not use arguments like, "Well, on my worldview it isn't a problem." I've heard Doug Wilson say that in debates.
Perhaps Doug Wilson is not aquainted with the evidence. Plus I don't know the context of when he said it. I'm not his biggest fan.No one says you can't, but when you do that you will have to evaluate the evidences and not use arguments like, "Well, on my worldview it isn't a problem." I've heard Doug Wilson say that in debates.
Ok but a proper way to use worldview and evidences is to examine the context (worldview) that the evidences are being examined by. A naturalist might agree that Christ rose from the grave but that it was a freak accident and nothing more. There are no preinterpretid facts.
Im not sure i understand what contradictions you're reffering to? I hope I'm not simply giving "talking points" but clarification. My hypothetical was an example to clarify what I'm saying. I post not only for the person I'm talking to but anyone's edification.I am familiar with the Van Tillian talking points. That's not what the issue would be. Even evidentialists believe that evidences must be in context. We are talking about perceived contradictions et al, not on hypotheticals whether Christ could rise from the dead on naturalistic accounts.
Im not sure i understand what contradictions you're reffering to? I hope I'm not simply giving "talking points" but clarification. My hypothetical was an example to clarify what I'm saying. I post not only for the person I'm talking to but anyone's edification.
I thought you meant contradictions in pressupossitonalism. Sorry.Of course I don't believe there are actual contradictions. I'm simply guessing what unbelievers usually say
I thought you meant contradictions in pressupossitonalism. Sorry.
Sounds good. As always a pleasure talking with you. I like talking with you, even if I think you're wrong I still have to think about it. And sometimes I'm wrong and you point that out for me, iron sharpening iron.I see. We were talking past each other. I disagree with presup but I can't think of any actual contradictions in it.
For the unbeliever even to open his mouth with a mind to challenging the Christian with respect to resolving bible contradictions, archealogy, etc, he should be ready to warrant his use of language, and ultimately his use of induction.I think what he is getting at is that would involve evidences (e.g., resolving bible contradictions, archealogy, etc) than worldview commitments.
For the unbeliever even to open his mouth with a mind to challenging the Christian with respect to resolving bible contradictions, archealogy, etc, he should be ready to warrant his use of language, and ultimately his use of induction.
If he can't, as Wittgenstein would say, "Of what he cannot speak, keep silent."
That's the kind of response I was talking about. Ironically, for presups to talk about the Bible a lot, this is an example of not going to it. Why not just answer the question about the Bible?