Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
or a hand full of stoolsI hope I don't have a heart full of hatred.
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or a hand full of stoolsI hope I don't have a heart full of hatred.
Some of the confusion on this point seems to stem from an overly high view of song as an element of worship. How many times after a church service have you heard someone say, "That was a great service - the singing was wonderful!"? What we should really be saying is, "That was a great service - the preaching of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments was wonderful!"
The Westminster Confession lists the "singing of psalms with grace in the heart" (21.5) as one part of ordinary religious worship, not the be all and end all of worship. The idea that you are not worshipping God simply because you abstain from one part of the worship in which you believe the command of God has been set aside, does not mean that you are not worshipping at all.
Nope, and neither did Jenny I hope. They were all fed up with Erastianism and Jenny demonstrated (rightly or wrongly).I hope I don't have a heart full of hatred.
Nope, and neither did Jenny I hope. They were all fed up with Erastianism and Jenny demonstrated (rightly or wrongly).
Jenny Geddes did not have a heart of hate. Her action was inspired by a love of the pure Gospel. I admire her.I hope I don't have a heart full of hatred.
See comment #64Jenny Geddes did not have a heart of hate. Her action was inspired by a love of the pure Gospel. I admire her.
So people who must remain silent when an uninspired song is raised to God are suffering (should be, because it’s a grievous thing all around); they generally sorrow that it must be so, for now, and I so appreciate Rev. Duguid’s practice with this.
Jimmy,but I have to wonder how they can maintain that view seeing the vast majority of congregations throughout the USA, and the world who do not.
My point is that the majority of the visible church, and the government of the OPC have looked at the facts of the controversy and decided for both Psalms and Hymns as appropriate practices within the RPW. This fact, were I an advocate of EP might cause me to rethink my convictions.Jimmy,
Surely your not advocating we align all our practices with the majority of the visible church in every detail. We should be bound by the Word, even if we stand alone at times. Think how in the minority the 12 disciples seemed to be at first in their own context.
I currently hold to EP, but I do not withhold my young daughters from singing as the current focus is to help them be still and reverent. I remain silent during hymns, but I also don’t “shush” my five year old and two year old if they sing one of the hymns.
We mostly get the Psalms in with secret and private worship. I also don’t dogmatically forbid my wife to do it either and i try on occasion to discuss my reasonings for being EP. Maybe that makes be a softy.
Jimmy,My point is that the majority of the visible church, and the government of the OPC have looked at the facts of the controversy and decided for both Psalms and Hymns as appropriate practices within the RPW. This fact, were I an advocate of EP might cause me to rethink my convictions.
It would do well to study the catholicity of the church. Is it more divisive to run fellow Christian brethren out of a congregation because they cannot participate in an element of worship without sinning, or is it more divisive to let them have their views? The division is already there: you believe one thing, and they believe another. I would think that the course of action that best expresses the unity of the Spirit that the Scriptures say we have would be to let them unite with the congregation as much as they can, as indeed pastors and elders in the OPC often decide to handle the matter. Besides, people in a Presbyterian congregation have not all arrived at the same place. It is expected that teaching needs to be given to all who are in attendance, and therefore, that not all will be compliant initially. If hymn singing is of such an important issue that one is willing to drive some people away from the congregation if they will not sing, then I would hope that pastors and elders would bear patiently with them and work with them to try and bring them to what they see to be the truth.I do think it is divisive to stand sullenly silent while the congregation sings. How can it be anything other than divisive ? It may be a negative, from my point of view, influence on impressionable children, and it is a tacit statement that the balance of the congregation who are singing 'uninspired hymns' are outside of the RPW. Not divisive ?
No one has asked that. I think a study of the church's catholicity is important. See especially the articles on Napthali Press from Rutherford concerning separation. There are degrees of separation. One need not separate or cause a separation as an "all or nothing" affair. By being separate from the PCA in government, the OPC is not entirely separate from them and saying members of the PCA should pack their bags and leave. Instead, the two denominations are not entirely separated: they agree in much in doctrine, worship, discipline, and practice, and they are willing to participate in each other's congregation's worship and Lord's Supper.A respected member of this board, Dr Strange was the editor of the Psalter/Hymnal. Should he be asked to pack his bags and leave the PB ? I can sympathize with those who hold to EP as a matter of conscience, but I have to wonder how they can maintain that view seeing the vast majority of congregations throughout the USA, and the world who do not.
It would do well to study the catholicity of the church. Is it more divisive to run fellow Christian brethren out of a congregation because they cannot participate in an element of worship without sinning, or is it more divisive to let them have their views? The division is already there: you believe one thing, and they believe another. I would think that the course of action that best expresses the unity of the Spirit that the Scriptures say we have would be to let them unite with the congregation as much as they can, as indeed pastors and elders in the OPC often decide to handle the matter. Besides, people in a Presbyterian congregation have not all arrived at the same place. It is expected that teaching needs to be given to all who are in attendance, and therefore, that not all will be compliant initially. If hymn singing is of such an important issue that one is willing to drive some people away from the congregation if they will not sing, then I would hope that pastors and elders would bear patiently with them and work with them to try and bring them to what they see to be the truth.
In my experience, the influence on children is negligible. Most people follow what the pastor teaches, especially in certain congregations where ministers instruct the EPers to never talk about their views. It is true that their action of being silent can be interpreted as a tacit statement that those who are singing hymns of mere human composure are outside of the RPW (although that is not the intent of the action), but by the congregation singing the hymns of mere human composure, they too can be tacitly interpreted as saying the EPer is outside the RPW.
I repeat, if I came across implying that holding one view or the other required separation that was not my intent. On the other hand, remaining silent during the congregational singing is de facto separation in a sense.No one has asked that. I think a study of the church's catholicity is important. See especially the articles on Napthali Press from Rutherford concerning separation. There are degrees of separation. One need not separate or cause a separation as an "all or nothing" affair. By being separate from the PCA in government, the OPC is not entirely separate from them and saying members of the PCA should pack their bags and leave. Instead, the two denominations are not entirely separated: they agree in much in doctrine, worship, discipline, and practice, and they are willing to participate in each other's congregation's worship and Lord's Supper.
I would have to do some digging myself, but I'm thinking that when the OPC's Directory For Public Worship was compiled arguments from Scripture were likely considered in deciding what the procedures expressed would be.One can play the majority game conveniently in all sorts of ways. Most Christians do not observe the Sabbath in accord with the WCF or even believe in the RPW. How can one maintain one's view that the Reformed faith is correct, when the majority of good bible believing Christians do not? If the OT history is any indication, changes in worship often happen, and it is possible for a minority to be correct, especially in a day when everyone admits is a time of great declension. Because the majority game can be played in all sorts of way, while not ignoring the church catholic's views, it's best to keep the arguments to Scripture.
There are OPC sessions that will not allow EPs to be members which is the extreme read leads to among other reasons.
Just a point of clarification: you are reading the page wrong. It includes entire denominations as well as individual congregations. The RPCNA is I think the largest EP church in the US and it has close to 300 churches I think? I could be a little off, so forgive me if I am. Your basic point that EP churches are few and far between is still valid, but not quite as extreme as you suggest. In some parts of the country (Western PA I'm looking at you), they might even be said to be common.In the USA and Canada there are a mere handful of churches that practice EP. Assuming this page is up to date I count 34 in the USA, of which 3 are my denomination, OPC.
Very good then! And yes, you are correct. It is a negative separation from that particular act of worship, but it is a separation still.I repeat, if I came across implying that holding one view or the other required separation that was not my intent. On the other hand, remaining silent during the congregational singing is de facto separation in a sense.
Perhaps some will be curious, but people still follow the lead of the minister and elders, in my experience. The only ones who noticed and asked me were those who had already had exposure to the position and were wondering if that was the reason why I did not sing.I wonder how negligible the influence on children, and adults is ? I certainly was made curious enough by one member's silence during the singing of hymns to ask him what his reasons were.
They probably did, which is good. It is different than arguing from a majority contemporary practice.I would have to do some digging myself, but I'm thinking that when the OPC's Directory For Public Worship was compiled arguments from Scripture were likely considered in deciding what the procedures expressed would be.
See the thread link; I've been told by more than one person. Now, the other shoe is I know there can be unhelpful boneheaded behavior and miscues, cage stage, etc. by EP advocates. It's a two way street, particularly if an EP wants to remain for whatever reason a member in an non EP church. When I joined my local PCA, granted there were family connections, I made it clear I was not a revolutionary.Really? That is very interesting.
I recently did likewise.I made it clear I was not a revolutionary.
I made it clear I was not a revolutionary.
So... I should put the cannons back in the garage, then?I recently did likewise.
...Given that two of your most celebrated ministers (John Murray and G. I. Williamson) were/are exclusive psalmody and defended staying in the denomination notwithstanding their convictions on the issue....
If that is a serious question I'm not sure what you are asking. I joined my church in 2007, ten years later with no specific campaigning or activity on my part that I'm conscious of, my church has its own full psalter I was asked to help produce from which we sing 60-70% of the time in public worship.So... I should put the cannons back in the garage, then?
If I understand your post correctly you do not mean to cast aspersions at the OPC as a denomination, but you do mean to cast an aspersion at OPC members who've participated in this thread as being uncharitable ? If by chance I may be one of those who you have so judged, please point out where in my posts I've been so.Here is one practical way for EPers who have to attend hymn singing congregations to avoid being divisive: Before you start attending on a regular basis, ask those in leadership if your position will cause a problem?
Most faithful ministers, if they know that you are not being divisive and are seeking to follow scripture and your conscience, will not have a problem with you. If they do have a problem, then that is a red flag that you are dealing with an authoritarian who is seeking to be a lord over your conscience.
I do not mean to cast aspersions at the OPC as a denomination, but the sentiments uttered by some of its members in this thread are genuinely alarming. Given that two of your most celebrated ministers (John Murray and G. I. Williamson) were/are exclusive psalmody and defended staying in the denomination notwithstanding their convictions on the issue, one would have thought that a little bit more charity could be extended to others of like opinions.
It was not a serious question. I do not in fact own any artillery pieces.If that is a serious question I'm not sure what you are asking. I joined my church in 2007, ten years later with no specific campaigning or activity on my part that I'm conscious of, my church has its own full psalter I was asked to help produce from which we sing 60-70% of the time in public worship.
I think public worship with song was first recorded when God commanded Moses to write a song and teach it to Israel. So the people sang it, and they sang it as they were gathered for worship. This story, and the song written and sung by Moses and taught to the people with the command to learn it and sing it, is recorded in Deuteronomy 31:14-32:43.
This is interesting. Romans922 feels they didn't sing until David brought singing into worship. It's a good study I'll have to search out in order to answer him.
If I understand your post correctly you do not mean to cast aspersions at the OPC as a denomination, but you do mean to cast an aspersion at OPC members who've participated in this thread as being uncharitable ? If by chance I may be one of those who you have so judged, please point out where in my posts I've been so.
I think you’re right. It does show that prophetic song was an instrument for instruction and admonition prior to David, which seems interesting. That idea wasn’t a brand new thing.As I stated above, I don't believe this song was for public worship. Though Moses received it at the tabernacle, it seems implied that he went out to all Israel and taught them this. For what purpose? Was it worship? No, it seems rather the purpose "that this song may be a witness for Me against the children of Israel." Also, later under David, in ceremonial worship who sang in public worship at the tent of meeting? It was the Levites who alone sang and played instruments. To believe this then was a command for all of Israel to sing in worship would then go against the Scriptures that are absolutely clear in Chronicles (that only the Levites sang). So we need to use Scripture to interpret Scripture as well when we consider the song given to Moses in Deut. 31. It seems to be a catechetical tool to teach the people, not a command for all of Israel to sing in public worship.
I think you’re right. It does show that prophetic song was an instrument for instruction and admonition prior to David, which seems interesting. That idea wasn’t a brand new thing.