greenbaggins
Puritan Board Doctor
Thanks, Patrick. I was just thinking earlier that that might have been the issue to which Lane was alluding.
In a word, yep.
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Thanks, Patrick. I was just thinking earlier that that might have been the issue to which Lane was alluding.
I also have at times tried to wade through an impressive amount of study material that was placed in a very good commentary, and yet the end result to me was getting bogged down into more of the various discussions on why such and such did not did not actually author this Book, the historical context of the times, the various views that have been held over the years, current controversy about the subject matter of the Book. Yet, not really that much of what was the intended meaning of the Book, and how to understand and then apply it.I don't think anyone is denying either the importance of technical study or deep devotion. (I'm certainly not.) But I do have a personal reflection that may help one understand my position:
The closer I got to graduating from seminary, the more frustrated I got with my biblical studies courses. It seemed that more and more we were being forced to occupy ourselves with heavily technical commentaries and resources. They dealt with everything—critical issues, textual variants, historical details, cultural specifics, etc. Yes, they dealt with everything, almost always except one thing: what the text means. I found increasingly, even when using commentaries by evangelicals, that I walked away from the study knowing everything about the surroundings of the text, yet not the text itself. Of course, I understand that all that information is important for understanding the text.
The tipping point for me was when a good friend of mine had points taken off the grade of his OT exegetical paper because he cited Calvin's Commentary on the passage, since Calvin is neither modern nor overly technical. Again, I fully understand that Calvin will not deal with modern controversies over critical theory and historical questions. Yet I never walked away from Calvin without the meaningful import of any given biblical passage weighing heavily upon my soul. But I found increasingly that, at the seminary level, we were far more focused about what Spinoza or some other God-critic theorized, to the utter exclusion of what bearing the text at hand had upon our lives. It was, frankly, life-sucking. I understand and appreciate that we need to be able to converse with these things, obviously.
So, again, I would never say that technical study is unimportant. Of course it is of immense importance. Perhaps I have just been very influenced by Rushdoony and his strong criticism of what he called "constipated theology"—theology that so interested in the abstract and theoretical that it never gets to what theology actually is, "the application of Scripture, by persons, to every area of life" (John Frame, Systematic Theology, p. 8; emphasis added). So, for me, a commentary that does not at the very least conclude with the bearing the text has on our lives is, frankly, not worth much of my time, if any at all. I realize I am drawing somewhat of a false dichotomy (i.e., that commentaries can either be only technical or only pastoral), but in my experience this seems to be the way things actually are, hence my concerns above.
This would be a good topic for a stand alone thread.When do you consult a commentary, in the beginning stages, or after have done own work up on the book and its doctrines yourself? or just for trouble passages in particular?
The school that trained me in in how to read and understand and apply the doctrines of the bible was really big on us going through the Book ourselves first, and then use the Commentary as a consulting work in order to help clarify disputed or not well understand scriptures.This would be a good topic for a stand alone thread.
Answering the question for myself I'd have to say it varies. More or less all of the above for one book of the Bible at one time or another.
When do you consult a commentary, in the beginning stages, or after have done own work up on the book and its doctrines yourself? or just for trouble passages in particular?
Do you find that under your point 2, that when the Holy Spirit makes the passage make sense to you in the sense that you now really understand and start to apply it, is something that the Commentary cannot do, as that would be someone else understanding of that passage?I was taught, as a general rule, to avoid consulting commentaries until you yourself have done your own textual/lexical/grammatical, contextual, historical, and theological analysis of the passage. There are several reasons for this:
1) Consulting commentaries before doing your own exegetical work can foster laziness—not necessarily so, but if it becomes a practice.
2) Similarly, when the preacher/teacher digs deep into the text for himself before all else, there is a much better chance it will be "in his bones," which makes the preaching/teaching occasion much more authentic, which makes it only more powerful for the listeners.
3) Consulting commentaries is much more fruitful when you have done your homework first. Consulting a commentary without doing your own exegetical work first would be similar to attending a doctoral seminar without having done the reading first. You would be unable to engage in discussion or debate, or to contribute to the thought in any way, and thus learn much less in much more time.
I appreciate the encouragement. That is a very difficult passage and much controverted.As it turns out, I listened to Fred's sermon on Romans 7:13-25 a bit earlier today, which was very good.
Have you had a chance to review Thielman's new one?My top ten are as follows, in no particular order: Cranfield (ICC), Moo (NICNT, now in a second edition), Nygren, Boice, Shedd, Lloyd-Jones, Schreiner (now in a second edition), Murray, Haldane, Calvin.
I was taught, as a general rule, to avoid consulting commentaries until you yourself have done your own textual/lexical/grammatical, contextual, historical, and theological analysis of the passage. There are several reasons for this:
1) Consulting commentaries before doing your own exegetical work can foster laziness—not necessarily so, but if it becomes a practice.
2) Similarly, when the preacher/teacher digs deep into the text for himself before all else, there is a much better chance it will be "in his bones," which makes the preaching/teaching occasion much more authentic, which makes it only more powerful for the listeners.
3) Consulting commentaries is much more fruitful when you have done your homework first. Consulting a commentary without doing your own exegetical work first would be similar to attending a doctoral seminar without having done the reading first. You would be unable to engage in discussion or debate, or to contribute to the thought in any way, and thus learn much less in much more time.
I have heard that as well, but I don't agree. That would be like telling a conductor to refrain from listening to Solti/Vienna perform Wagner before conducting it himself.
I have heard that as well, but I don't agree. That would be like telling a conductor to refrain from listening to Solti/Vienna perform Wagner before conducting it himself.
The main concern would be that a Pastor or teacher would be totally relying upon what others see the passage as stating, and not discerning that first for themselves.I have heard that as well, but I don't agree. That would be like telling a conductor to refrain from listening to Solti/Vienna perform Wagner before conducting it himself.
My Senior pastor has 2 earned PhD's in the scriptures, and that is the way that he was taught to approach the learning of the scriptures themselves for teaching and preaching purposes.I didn’t mean to write what I wrote as a strict rule, of course. I think we were taught that particular way simply to encourage us to not be lazy regarding our own study by merely copying what others have said without engaging in our own critical thought. It obviously wouldn’t be a sin to read a commentary before doing one’s own exegetical work. Besides, in my opinion, everyone has their own method of exegesis. As long as it leads them to a faithful understanding and exposition of Scripture, then that’s the point. If their method or process looks totally different than mine or anyone else’s, that’s fine!
(Solti is fantastic with Wagner, by the way. You’ve given me the itch to go listen again. Haha.)
I have been listening to John MacArthur recently, and he will be celebrating his 50th anniversary at his church as senior pastor this march, and remarkable to me how he still spends so much time in the scriptures, and states that he still finds something new and fresh every time to teach on and about.Thinking about the question of text before commentaries, in preparing sermons, it occurred to me that in his sermons my pastor will sometimes mention how one or another commentator interprets a passage of Scripture. He has been pastor at our OPC congregation for 18 years. He graduated from WTS more than 20 years ago.
Say that to say, he has undoubtedly been through the text, the commentaries, many, many times. With years of experience would it make a great deal of difference in sermon preparation for a pastor to reference various commentaries on particular passages first, or start at the text first? I'm thinking that with years of preaching under his belt, the average pastor must have a firm grasp, and is more or less refreshing his memory ?
I'm not saying that a pastor shouldn't continue to search the Scriptures, and the commentaries, in a continuing effort to better understand and exegete it. Just that it seems to me the veteran pastor would have a great deal of knowledge stored in the grey matter.
I can see where a 'new' pastor, without the years of preparing and preaching sermons, would possibly be better off going directly to the text first, but I'd bet those with years of experience don't need to use that approach.
John MacArthur, in his 'How To Study The Bible', recommends always using the same copy of the Bible, whichever translation, so that you'll be able to memorize Scripture verses, and find them not by the chapter and verse number, but by the location, because you'll know your copy of your Bible like the palm of your hand. I read too many versions to take advantage of that advice, but this is how he says he does it. He also repeats all that in a radio series he did on studying the Bible.I have been listening to John MacArthur recently, and he will be celebrating his 50th anniversary at his church as senior pastor this march, and remarkable to me how he still spends so much time in the scriptures, and states that he still finds something new and fresh every time to teach on and about.
He has written many books and commentaries over the years, but have been encouraged to see him sticking into the scriptures. themselves.
He also would have each person really write into the margins whatever God is teaching you each time you open the Bible, as you develop over time your own commentary on the books of the Bible.John MacArthur, in his 'How To Study The Bible', recommends always using the same copy of the Bible, whichever translation, so that you'll be able to memorize Scripture verses, and find them not by the chapter and verse number, but by the location, because you'll know your copy of your Bible like the palm of your hand. I read too many versions to take advantage of that advice, but this is how he says he does it. He also repeats all that in a radio series he did on studying the Bible.
He also would have each person really write into the margins whatever God is teaching you each time you open the Bible, as you develop over time your own commentary on the books of the Bible.