Accurately understanding "Reformed continuationism"

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They could not contradict the apostles, and the other prophets had to confirm a prophet's revelation in the worship service. The eyewitnesses and the prophets provided supernatural checks on individual prophets during the time of the apostles. Those checks are now gone.

I don't see why they need supernatural checks. When Paul says "test the prophecies," I don't see what kind of supernatural criteria could be involved.
And how can we now lay hands to ordain a new covenant prophet when we have been given no criteria or instructions by which to call or identify one, like we do with elders or deacons?

I don't see the NT really concerned about "ordaining" prophets.
 
Perhaps you mean "Jesus directly touched the body of the sick person." But that doesn't account for all healings, as he healed the centurion's servant from a distance.

But the statement "as he did while on earth as Jesus Christ" is dangerously misleading. Is he no longer Jesus Christ?
He is forever more the God man Jesus Christ....
 
That is NOT what you said. You said "directly touching bodies as he did while on earth as Jesus Christ". If you don't like to be challenged for all manner of erroneous statements, you should be far more clear in the original posts. What you actually did say might have gotten you burned at the stake in times past......just sayin'
He is still and shall always be for all eternity the same Lord Jesus. Looking back at it, I now see someone could have concluded that He was Jesus while on earth, and than ceased to be while now in Heaven. Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
 
David, the signs and wonders performed by Christ and the Apostles were written down so that people might believe that Jesus is the Christ. There is no longer a need for those miracles, in fact they’re precluded- to say that they’re desirable or needed in evangelism is to undermine the preaching of the gospel. “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.” Hebrews 4:12-13.


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I agree with you that the Normitive way that God operates today is through the preaching and teaching of the scriptures, but do still see Him at times using things such as visions and dreams to reach into nations and peoples group that were until now closed off from the Gospel. I have just read and heard some testimonies from what I see as credible witnesses that God moving especially among Muslims in this fashion today.
The people affected still must hear the good news and be turned to Christ by the Holy Spirit, as the prior working is more like preparing them to receive the good news now.
 
My argument is where does Scripture place an asterisk by some of the grace-gifts, saying they will be gone once the last letter of the NT canon (which is never mentioned in Scripture) is completed.
The purpose of the so called sign gifts were to testify and witness to the truth of Jesus being whom He claimed Himself to be, and the truth of the Gospel itself. God has now firmly established to all the veracity of the truth of Jesus being the Son of God and savior/messiah, and that the scriptures are the very word of God, so why the need for them to continue onward?
 
David, the signs and wonders performed by Christ and the Apostles were written down so that people might believe that Jesus is the Christ. There is no longer a need for those miracles, in fact they’re precluded- to say that they’re desirable or needed in evangelism is to undermine the preaching of the gospel. “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.” Hebrews 4:12-13.


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Signs and wonders are not needed today, nor the normitive way that God operates today, but in special situations such closed off until now Muslims areas, seems to be operating in some unique fashions even today.
 
I've been brought out of both Romanism and Charismaticism, with quite a bit of angst and continued need to work through false teaching.

Pastor Angus Stewart, of the PRC was helpful both in his written articles and pastoral care. Perhaps some would be helped by this series and also a two hour debate he did, which I recently listened to again and found deeply convincing of Cessationism.

There is no greater sign and wonder than regeneration by the Spirit, and the justification of the elect sinner in Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/charismaticchristianity.html
http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/ongoingprophecy.html
http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/speakingintongues.html
http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/miracles.html
 
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I don't see why they need supernatural checks. When Paul says "test the prophecies," I don't see what kind of supernatural criteria could be involved.

They need the checks because Paul required it in public worship (1 Cor 14). The other prophets had to validate that a new revelation was authentic. When John called the church to "test the spirits" he gave them criteria to identify the specific false teaching they faced. That doesn't nullify what Paul said earlier about how prophecy is conducted in public gatherings.

I don't see the NT really concerned about "ordaining" prophets.
But we would have to be, because we don't have any apostles or prophets to recognize and validate the ministry of a new prophet.

The apostles and prophets are linked together in a unique foundational way (Eph 2:20, 3:5). In Revelation 22:6-9, the angel identified the prophets to the apostle John as "your brothers" and as those who uniquely partake of the "spirits of the prophets". Elsewhere in Revelation, the prophets are distinct from the saints (Rev. 11:18, 16:6, 18:20, 18:24).

Prophecies did not just come sporadically from the saints but from those uniquely called to that office and equipped with that gift. If they are to continue today, then we need the original ecclesiastical structure as well which validated their ministry.
 
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Prophecies did not just come sporadically from the saints but from those uniquely called to that office and equipped with that gift. If they are to continue to today, then we need the original ecclesiastical structure as well which validated their ministry.
I think this is the bottom line, Pastor.
 
The other prophets had to validate that a new revelation was authentic.

I would guess the prophecy's coming true would be one mark. And when Paul told us to discern the prophets, he didn't give us a list. He just assumed it would happen. If there was a supernatural checklist, he should have given it.
But we would have to be, because we don't have any apostles or prophets to recognize and validate the ministry of a new prophet.

If the NT says ordain prophets, then we can worry about ordination criteria. Some have the gift of encouragement, yet we don't ordain encouragers.
Prophecies did not just come sporadically from the saints but from those uniquely called to that office and equipped with that gift.

That doesn't fit with Paul's command that we should all desire the gift of prophecy.
 
The purpose of the so called sign gifts were to testify and witness to the truth of Jesus being whom He claimed Himself to be, and the truth of the Gospel itself.

Assertion.
God has now firmly established to all the veracity of the truth of Jesus being the Son of God and savior/messiah

That has nothing to do with prophecy. Paul says prophecy is a sign for believers, but why would believers need a sign that Jesus is God? They already know that.
 
I understand what you are getting at. Honestly, that's an area I am studying right now. All I will say at this point is even if the apostolate closed, that just means the apostolate closed.



NT prophet and apostle aren't the same thing. An apostle's word is binding from God (except Peter's in Gal. 2). Yet, Paul, an apostle, distinguishes himself from the Corinthian prophets. Further, Phillip's daughters prophesied but they weren't apostles.


I've read Gaffin, but not Robertson.
There is a clear distinction between the NT Apostles and OT prophets of God, as they were inspired by the Spirit and infallible when speaking forth for God, or recording down for Him, and the gifts to prophesy were not in the same vein.
The recordings of the gifts, and how there were meantto function for within thelocal assemblies, were all in the transistion period in the NT, for the Apostles were still living, but when they were all being put to death for sake of Christ, the gifts were shifting from them being normal occurrences, as the Lord left to us then the more sure word of the scriptures/prophecy, as per Peter.
 
I understand what you are getting at. Honestly, that's an area I am studying right now. All I will say at this point is even if the apostolate closed, that just means the apostolate closed.



NT prophet and apostle aren't the same thing. An apostle's word is binding from God (except Peter's in Gal. 2). Yet, Paul, an apostle, distinguishes himself from the Corinthian prophets. Further, Phillip's daughters prophesied but they weren't apostles.


I've read Gaffin, but not Robertson.
Interesting discussion , showing the viewpoints between Gaffin and Grudem concerning spiritual gifts.
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/35/35-2/JETS_35-2_173-181_White.pdf
 
If there was a supernatural checklist, he should have given it.
Have you had an instance when you tested a prophecy? What criteria did you use? If proper discernment is based on the bible, what verses helped you? I am genuinely asking, Jacob.
 
I don't see why they need supernatural checks. When Paul says "test the prophecies," I don't see what kind of supernatural criteria could be involved.


I don't see the NT really concerned about "ordaining" prophets.
There are no Apostles/prophets today, correct?
 
I would guess the prophecy's coming true would be one mark. And when Paul told us to discern the prophets, he didn't give us a list. He just assumed it would happen. If there was a supernatural checklist, he should have given it.
That's the problem. There is a lot assumed because they had the system in place to validate the prophecies.

If the NT says ordain prophets, then we can worry about ordination criteria. Some have the gift of encouragement, yet we don't ordain encouragers.
But encouragers are not listed as specific officers in the church. Prophets are (Eph 4:11). Encouragers are not responsible to communicate divine revelation. Prophets are. Maybe you don't like the word "ordain", but there would have to be some sort of public recognition of his (or her) office in order to exercise it in public worship. "The spirits of the prophets are subject to prophets" (1 Cor 14:32).

That doesn't fit with Paul's command that we should all desire the gift of prophecy.

It fits perfectly when you have the ecclesiastical structures in place which were there in that time period.
 
That's the problem. There is a lot assumed because they had the system in place to validate the prophecies.


But encouragers are not listed as specific officers in the church. Prophets are (Eph 4:11). Encouragers are not responsible to communicate divine revelation. Prophets are. Maybe you don't like the word "ordain", but there would have to be some sort of public recognition of his (or her) office in order to exercise it in public worship. "The spirits of the prophets are subject to prophets" (1 Cor 14:32).



It fits perfectly when you have the ecclesiastical structures in place which were there in that time period.
When a NT Apostle/Prophet spoke in a church assembly, none needed to check them, as they were operating as inspired of the Lord when giving forth doctrines, but those who were prophesying from God were not in that same situation, as their utterances and revelations were not always true, as were mixed with emotions and false utterances at times.It seems that the gift of prophecy was more giving forth encouragement, guidance, and praise than outright doctrines and divine revelation.
 
Have you had an instance when you tested a prophecy? What criteria did you use? If proper discernment is based on the bible, what verses helped you? I am genuinely asking, Jacob.
Any claim being made today of a prophecy must be checked against the scriptures themselves.
 
Any claim being made today of a prophecy must be checked against the scriptures themselves.
David, I reject any claim to modern day prophecy. If you heard someone prophecy, what verses of the bible would you use to substantiate it? How would you check the "credentials" of both the prophet and the one discerning the prophecy?
 
There are no Apostles/prophets today, correct?

I do not say there are apostles today. I am pushing back on some cessationist arguments concerning prophets. I am trying to do everyone a favor. Many Reformed and Macarthurite folks are used to arguing against the Benny Hinns of the world. But if they debated someone like Keener or Michael Brown or Steve Hays, it would be a very differerent story.
 
Have you had an instance when you tested a prophecy?

I have been in cessationist churches all my life. I've never seen (or heard, rather) a prophecy. I am simply going by the text alone right now. I will bring in experience (or lack thereof) later.
What criteria did you use?

Depends on what was prophecided, speaking hypothetically, of course. And whether this was actually prophecy or word of knowledge. If someone prophecied, like Richard Cameron, that he would die in the next week, and he indeed died the next week, then it seems an open and shut case.
 
But in 1 Cor. 14 he tells the church to earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially to prophecy
Again, the command was made within an ecclesiastical context where the other apostles or prophets could validate the newly gifted prophets in the congregation. Of course, when you have that accountability in place, you can eagerly desire and exercise those gifts in the congregation. But we don't live within that context or ecclesiastical structure anymore, and haven't for 1900 years or so.
 
Prof. Duguid has already rebutted that statement, and much of it hinges on the denotation of "revelation." As noted above, if God reveals to me that I need to pray for missionary X right now because his life is in danger, is that false and/or unnecessary?

But God has already revealed to us that we ought to pray for all men, and so I don’t see how your example refutes Owen’s quote. Also, i find it hard to believe that the fate of a particular missionary would truly rest on my prayer alone, which is what would seem to be necessary for God to give such a revelation to just me.
 
Prof. Duguid has already rebutted that statement, and much of it hinges on the denotation of "revelation." As noted above, if God reveals to me that I need to pray for missionary X right now because his life is in danger, is that false and/or unnecessary?
Jacob- “if God reveals to me that I need to...” you keep introducing hypotheticals like this. First we need to determine whether Scripture teaches us that God will speak to us this way. Does Scripture say these gifts (I suppose you would label this one a word of knowledge or prophecy?) were for the edification of the church, for the building up of the saints, or were they for private situations like this theoretical situation?
 
Acts 14 didn't count? We could go with the simple reading of the texts. That's my argument from Scripture. You are the one who is saying this scripture doesn't apply any more. The burden is on you.

1 Corinthians 1:7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul sees the terminus of the gifts with the 2nd Coming. That's my closing statement
So Acts 14 tells about the healing of the crippled man at Lystra- I’m not sure what your thinking is, but this text shows how signs and wonders accompanied the apostles’ ministry. I see the text as descriptive rather than prescriptive, and as you know there is a rule of interpretation regarding that distinction. But I may be missing your point.

1 Corinthians 1:7- I think Paul is thanking God for the grace given to them so abundantly that they do not lack in any gift or grace; and that in all this, they are eagerly awaiting the coming of Christ. I don’t think the verse is speaking to whether or not, or how long, any of these gifts will continue of use in the church. The context just doesn’t seem to be speaking to that, but if you’ve found a commentary that says it does, please share. So far, I don’t think this text proves that Paul sees the extraordinary gifts continuing until Christ returns.
 
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