Women leading psalm singing?

[tantely]

In the context of a capella and exclusive psalmody, and knowing some prohibitions of women to some behavior and positions in the church, especially during public worship, I wonder if it is lawful to appoint a woman as a worship leader for the singing of the Psalms.


; )

 

[TylerRay]

In the context of a capella and exclusive psalmody, and knowing some prohibitions of women to some behavior and positions in the church, especially during public worship, I wonder if it is lawful to appoint a woman as a worship leader for the singing of the Psalms.


; )

Those who lead in the singing of the Psalms are not traditionally viewed as "worship leaders." The word that has historically been used is "precentors." Precenting is done for the sake of expediency (or perhaps necessity) in order to fulfill the command to sing in worship; thus, precentors are not officers in the church (though officers may precent), and they are not fulfilling an official function.

In light of that, women have sometimes served as precentors. This is usually done when there are multiple precentors in the congregation, guiding the people in various parts. There are obviously going to be folks who have a problem with this (and it does make me uncomfortable, though I don't really have a principled reason against it), and only tolerate men as precentors.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

While as you note this can get a little picky, I am not a fan of the "choir directing" I have seen in some RPCNA churches where the precenter comes up front and leads the singing.

 

[Peairtach]

We have a woman precentor in our church, although I and another man often precent.

 

[Scott Bushey]

in my opinion, it would be imprudent. Why can't a man step up?


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[Jeri Tanner]

While as you note this can get a little picky, I am not a fan of the "choir directing" I have seen in some RPCNA churches where the precenter comes up front and leads the singing.

How would the precenting ideally be done?

 

[OPC'n]

Why would it be wrong for a woman to use her voice of talent to guide others (the congregation) who need musical guidance in singing the songs the pastor has decided upon? She's not teaching men in fact she's using her God given talent in order to follow the pastor's direction in which songs to sing....she's under his direction. Anyway, that's what happens in our church. Our pastor decides which songs to sing and there's a woman who has a very strong voice and sings very well who stands off to the side and sings through a microphone and helps us.

 

[Jack K]

For what it's worth, the last time I was in a psalm-singing church with any regularity they often had a woman as precentor. It did not in the least feel like she was taking on a leadership role. That church clearly believed in male leadership. And because of this, the fact of the female precentor helped with the sense that the singing was congregational rather than something done from up front. She was clearly one of us, part of the congregation, and it was our time to sing. I rather liked the sense that the precentors mirrored the congregation, gender and all. It seemed the right approach for congregational singing.

 

[tantely]

In the context of a capella and exclusive psalmody, and knowing some prohibitions of women to some behavior and positions in the church, especially during public worship, I wonder if it is lawful to appoint a woman as a worship leader for the singing of the Psalms.


; )

Those who lead in the singing of the Psalms are not traditionally viewed as "worship leaders." The word that has historically been used is "precentors." Precenting is done for the sake of expediency (or perhaps necessity) in order to fulfill the command to sing in worship; thus, precentors are not officers in the church (though officers may precent), and they are not fulfilling an official function.

In light of that, women have sometimes served as precentors. This is usually done when there are multiple precentors in the congregation, guiding the people in various parts. There are obviously going to be folks who have a problem with this (and it does make me uncomfortable, though I don't really have a principled reason against it), and only tolerate men as precentors.

Thanks, I didn't know they were called precenters till now.[emoji5]

; )

 

[tantely]

The problem is not necessarily tied to leadership, the case of conscience arises when you read verses like "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says". As some pointed out, I agree, they can do a better job than guys as precenters, just as I am sure they can be better theologians than a teaching elder, which doesn't give them the right to teach tough.

; )

 

[johnny]

I am the Precentor in our Church (a role I've only held for five weeks)
We are using Reverend Ruddells psalms and midi file tune allocations and its working well.
We make vocalised learning material of the psalms each week in advance to aid the singing.
We also make sheet music so the lyrics fit the tunes for ease of sight reading.
This way the sopranos and altos already know the tunes and help with the singing.

My main job is the tempo and I've been told to slow it down a bit as I'm too fast.
We sing from the back of the congregation where we usually sit for the service.
Our church is small, no need for a microphone.

Thank you so much Reverend Ruddell for your excellent material,
It has been a real blessing to our new congregation,

 

[Scott Bushey]

I am the Precentor in our Church (a role I've only held for five weeks)
We are using Reverend Ruddells psalms and midi file tune allocations and its working well.
We make vocalised learning material of the psalms each week in advance to aid the singing.
We also make sheet music so the lyrics fit the tunes for ease of sight reading.
This way the sopranos and altos already know the tunes and help with the singing.

My main job is the tempo and I've been told to slow it down a bit as I'm too fast.
We sing from the back of the congregation where we usually sit for the service.
Our church is small, no need for a microphone.

Thank you so much Reverend Ruddell for your excellent material,
It has been a real blessing to our new congregation,

If the Psalter is being read by a woman, that, in my opinion would be a break in the RPW and akin to teaching. When I mention prudence, since, as Calvin says, 'we are idol factories', it would be in the best interest to not go that route; the issue of stumbling a church member is possible. Take for example, this post and me-would it stumble me, given what I believe, not to mention the woman who is precenting, who, by nature is built that way? One of the issues I had at my former church was women ushers. Visitors may see this as a leadership role. Most times, even though it is not a leadership role, it is thought that it is a Deacon position, to which I agree. The Deacons should do this.

 

[Edward]

The Deacons should do this.

Can you come up with any support from Scripture or the secondary standards saying that ushering is a diaconal function?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Noted. My 2 cents alone, if there are available Deacons, should they not fill this need, given what I pose above and if not, a male member that serves in a higher capacity in the infrastructure of the church.


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[Jeri Tanner]

I'd be interested in hearing from you men- do you, or would you find it easier to quickly find the note and key of the psalm when taking your cue from a male voice?


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[Peairtach]

The problem is not necessarily tied to leadership, the case of conscience arises when you read verses like "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says". As some pointed out, I agree, they can do a better job than guys as precenters, just as I am sure they can be better theologians than a teaching elder, which doesn't give them the right to teach tough.

; )

Your logic here would be that women shouldn't sing at all in church.

A precentor male or female isn't teaching but pitching a tune and keeping the pace.

Neither are men and women who stand at the door to greet congregants teaching.

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[Scott Bushey]

Do the precentors recite the opening of the Psalm or just vocalize the tune?


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[Peairtach]

The minister or other preacher reads the portion of the Psalm or the opening stanza.

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[Cymro]

When there are men available they lead in the public means. The word guidance has been used, but that essentially mean leading. To lead worship whether singing or taking collection is the responsibility of the male members. In the UK over the last decades, the feminist movement has entered the church, so that there has been a gradation from women taking collection,to lately one being installed as Bishop in the Anglican communion. Little foxes spoil the vine, and a small concession multiplies. The challenge of scripture, repeated at least four time to males is "quit you like men".

 

[Scott Bushey]

Well then, I still believe, based on my earlier post, for prudence sake, a man should step up for the task.


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[Peairtach]

I can understand in this age of feminism that some for prudence sake would want to hedge about the law.

It's not necessarily the case that female precentors, females on door duty or usherettes, leads to demands for deaconnesses, female ministers, elders, opportunities to preach, etc.

This lady has been precenting in the congregation for 27 years or more, is very capable as a precentor, and is under the authority of her husband and the elders. I've never heard any demands or moves from her or any other ladies towards usurping their roles.

Men, including myself, do also precent in the congregation.

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[Scott Bushey]

So, for the record, precentors just vocalize the tune and not any actual words?


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[Peairtach]

So, for the record, precentors just vocalize the tune and not any actual words?


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We just sing the psalm.

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[Scott Bushey]

But doesn't the precentor harmonize or sing the opening stanza?


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[Peairtach]

But doesn't the precentor harmonize or sing the opening stanza?


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No.

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[Scott Bushey]

So how is the precentor presented as guide? Do they stand in front if the congregation? I don't quite understand... If they do not open the song by first singing or harmonizing as an example, what's the point?


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[Peairtach]

The congregation - usually - know the tune. The role of the precentor is to start the tune, neither too high pitched or too low pitched, and to keep the tune from getting too slow or fast or from losing pitch. Sometimes he or she stands at the front or sometimes in the congregation.

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[Scott Bushey]

So they begin by Verbalizing the harmony only and not actual words?


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[Peairtach]

I'll put some examples of precenting Psalms in English from YouTube tomorrow to show you how it starts and how it's done.

Gaelic Psalm-singing has singing out the line, which is a bit different.

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[Scott Bushey]

Being a Jew, I am familiar w/ Cantors. I am trying to understand the differences between precentors and cantors. As well, from what I have seen from Greenville FCoSC, their precentor just would verbalized the tunes of the first stanza, first.


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