RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I know both are charismatic, but what is the difference between AoG and the Vineyard Movement?
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Thanks, Dennis. Wagner was your prof? Interesting. I just finished a few books by Wagner and Wimber.
Thanks, Dennis. Wagner was your prof? Interesting. I just finished a few books by Wagner and Wimber.
Yeah, when you are as old as I am, you've seen it all. Bob Gundry, Moises Silva, Rod Rosenbladt, C. Peter Wagner, George Ladd, Geoffrey Bromiley, Ray Anderson, Paul Jewett, Ralph P. Martin, William S. LaSor, Jack Rogers, Everett Harrison, Colin Brown, James Daane, Robert Tuttle, John D.W. Watts, Glen Barker, Robert Munger, Ralph Winter, Lewis Smedes, etc.
I spent most of the last 40 years objecting to various ideas taught to me during college and seminary.
It is interesting to me that after being one of the pioneers of "church growth," Wagner reportedly came to the view that he could not understand why the ideas make so much sense but just do not work in practice as well as they do in theory! He ultimately went in a hard charismatic/third wave direction believing that church growth by itself was all technique without the power of the H.S. His current work incorporates notions of territorial spirits (graphing the "principalities and powers" in particular localities in terms of which demon is where on the local hierarchy) in what he calls the "apostolic and prophetic" movement aka New Apostolic Reformation.
You've "just finished" reading some books by Wagner and Wimber?!? Wow!!! I never cease to be amazed at the range of your reading and intellectual curiosity! My "to do" list of books would have to get a WHOLE LOT shorter before either of them would make it to the top of my list. But, as usual, you are the man who reads more widely than just about anyone on the PB!
I default to Vern Poythress on territorial spirits.
Can you elaborate?
Thanks, Dennis. Wagner was your prof? Interesting. I just finished a few books by Wagner and Wimber.
Was Ladd part of the Third Wave movement? I know Wimber really used Ladd.
No!!! Ladd was about as non-Pentecostal/charismatic/third wave as you could get!
But, Wagner was a student of Ladd and incorporated a good bit of the biblical theological orientation of his former prof. He found the emphasis upon "kingdom" and the two age paradigm compatible with where he was going theologically. I'm guessing that Wimber got his kingdom ideas from both Ladd and Wagner.
Remember that Wagner received his M.Div. from Fuller before going out as a foreign missionary. He also obtained a ThM from Princeton and a M.A. from Fuller before doing his PhD at USC in social ethics for his dissertation on the homogeneous unit principle ("Our Kind of People").
I default to Vern Poythress on territorial spirits.
Can you elaborate?
See Territorial Spirits: Some Biblical Perspectives
Thanks, Dennis. Wagner was your prof? Interesting. I just finished a few books by Wagner and Wimber.
Was Ladd part of the Third Wave movement? I know Wimber really used Ladd.
No!!! Ladd was about as non-Pentecostal/charismatic/third wave as you could get!
But, Wagner was a student of Ladd and incorporated a good bit of the biblical theological orientation of his former prof. He found the emphasis upon "kingdom" and the two age paradigm compatible with where he was going theologically. I'm guessing that Wimber got his kingdom ideas from both Ladd and Wagner.
Remember that Wagner received his M.Div. from Fuller before going out as a foreign missionary. He also obtained a ThM from Princeton and a M.A. from Fuller before doing his PhD at USC in social ethics for his dissertation on the homogeneous unit principle ("Our Kind of People").
Thanks for the background. My alma mater (Louisiana College), in a moment of grandiose triumphalism, wanted to build a divinity school. That failed, but they did build a rather fine library before funds ran out. I have access to said library, so I was going to check out Ladd today.
Another difference is that AOG is officially pre-trib, from what I understand. As has been hinted at here with their appropriation of Ladd's theology of the kingdom, with the notable exception of of the amillennialist Sam Storms (who I think was associated with Vineyard and/or KC Prophets in the 80's) the main Third Wave writers have been "historic" premil, which basically just means post-trib. This has included Wimber, Grudem and Mike Bickle. I'm not sure if Michael L Brown would consider himself to be "Third Wave" but he is also not pre-trib.
For years I've thought that essentially postmil theologies like the Latter Rain are more compatible with pentecostalism since it is supposed to be a recovery of apostolic power to varying degrees. I've come across some 19th Century postmil writers (and not holiness ones--the Baptist J.M. Pendleton is one example) who said there would be such a recovery of apostolic gifts in the "end times" just prior to the Second Coming. Holiness movements before the 1920's seem to have been more postmil and opposed to premil as well. Premil was much more common among Baptists and Presbyterians. My guess is that AOG and Pentecostalism generally adopted pretrib because it was becoming popular after WWI.