RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I know both are charismatic, but what is the difference between AoG and the Vineyard Movement?
Difference Between Assembly of God and Vineyard?
- Thread starter RamistThomist
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Assemblies of God came from more of a Pentecostal Background. Vineyards were founded by people like John Wimber who were Charismatic and come out of the Jesus Movement of the 70's. There is a bit of a difference. Assemblies of God had more of a holiness movement attached to them. Charismatics are more progressive and tend to have more appreciation for the Word Faith Movement. Of course, these have somewhat homogenized together through the years.
joebonni63
Puritan Board Freshman
aog is very charismatic and vineyard came out of calvary chapel
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
The AoG was the prototypical Pentecostal denomination. It was doctrinal, fundamental, and committed to a belief in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. For many of them, speaking in tongues was viewed as genuine linguistic speech that was unlearned, a true gift of the Holy Spirit. The group grew out of holiness roots and became institutionalized in 1914, is the largest Pentecostal denom in the world, with over 300,000 ministers and more than 66 MILLION members worldwide. Yes, they have more clergy than the total communicant membership of the PCA and OP combined!!! Historically, they eschewed higher criticism, tended to be creationists, and were usually pro-life.
Using the nomenclature of my old seminary prof, C. Peter Wagner, the AoG is a "First Wave" movement. By this he meant that it represented the "first wave" of the Holy Spirit, following the Azuza St. Revival in Los Angeles (1906-1915). The other big Pentecostal denomination is the Foursquare Gospel (cf. Jack Hayford). True Pentecostals can typically be expected to join one of the dozens of pentecostal bodies.
"Charismatics," represent a transdenominational movement that can be found in Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, independent, Episcopal, Presbyterian, etc. congregations. It is sometimes denominated as the "Second Wave" of the Holy Spirit in the 20th century. Unlike the original Pentecostals, charismatics were less doctrinal, more behavioral, less fundamental, more likely to hold views outside the conservative mainstream. For them, speaking in tongues was an ecstatic enablement that might be used as a "prayer language." Much of the initial success of the charismatics came among those who wanted "something more" from their faith or who believed that their mainline churches were full of "dead orthodoxy." Today, the lilt of a charismatic emphasis can be found in some pretty mainstream evangelicals (e.g., John Piper and Wayne Grudem). Indeed, it is not unusual to find an evangelical who sings songs popular in charismatic circles, enjoys a piety that is decidedly charismatic in origin, and includes practices once considered characteristic of "those charismatics."
Wagner spoke of the Vineyard as a "Third Wave" movement. It arose out of a schism in the Calvary Chapel movement between the more classically doctrinal Chuck Smith (who began as a true Pentecostal minister) and John Wimber. I know a fellow who recounts the blow-by-blow of the actual meeting where the two groups separated. Wimber was an ex-entertainer who has even been credited by some with the founding of the Righteous Brothers singing group. He turned out to be a bit of a pioneer in the Church Growth field, becoming the Founding Director of the Church Growth division at the Charles E. Fuller Institute of Evangelism and Church Growth. In the years following my graduation from Fuller, Wimber taught a course that was famously popular with the Fuller students. He emphasized the role of "signs and wonders" in facilitating the evangelistic explosion in the early church. Wimber sought to replicate the role of miracles as accrediting signs that the Holy Spirit would use to grow his church exponentially. In the class, students would actually "practice" signs and wonders. For what I could gather from reports of the class, they showed an inordinate interest in headaches, PMS, and leg lengthening. Students would line up with their hips against the wall, be told that one of their legs was shorter than the other, be surrounded by a group of students who would pray over them, and then report that their shorter leg "grew" back to parity with the other one.
I actually had breakfast with Wimber once in the '80s and heard him say that he participated in several raisings of the dead. Ironically, he died at 63 following a brain hemorrhage after bypass surgery.
Like ALL denoms in the U.S., sometimes you can find more diversity within any given denomination than between different ones. So, the following may be more simplistic and reductionistic than useful. However . . .
* Pentecostals - tend to be fundamental, tend to come from lower sociological strata, tend to emphasize doctrine as a litmus test differentiating insiders and outsiders. The AoG is a ginormous worldwide body with more than 66 million folks on their rolls. In more recent years, many of their pastors have become quite educated (e.g., Gordon Fee). When I was at Fuller in the 70s, the AoG folks were the third largest denominational group in the school.
* Charismatics - the term is elastic since it denotes those who share an experience rather than a doctrine. When it burst on the scene in the middle of the last century, some of the leaders were mainline Episcopalians, Baptists, and Lutherans. Today, it has a higher percentage of the Word of Faith types and is well represented among some of the ginormous big box independent churches. Whereas Pentecostals (e.g., AoG, Foursquare) lean in the direction of doctrine, charismatics are far more interested in experience and behavioral markers. A mainline (or evangelical) congregation may have cliques of charismatics within it who meet in small groups together. This was especially true during the 1970s when the charismatic movement proved quite divisive in many mainline and evangelical churches. Much ink was spilled defending against charismatics (e.g., John Stott's justly famous book and the one by John MacArthur which dealt with Pentecostals as well). One of the bywords of charismatic Christianity was uttered by J. Rodman Williams: "Doctrine divides, the Holy Spirit unites." Generally the charismatic movement tolerated a great deal of doctrinal, ecclesiastical, and ideological diversity. Centering on an "experience" of the Holy Spirit allowed for casual acceptance of higher criticism, progressive social views, etc.
* Vineyard - In the US, the Vineyard has emphasized church planting. A few years back they counted 600-650 congregations and about 150,000 members. With a founding by a musician, it is not surprising that they emphasize music and probably attract people in a given community due to their cool worship. Insofar as broad evangelicalism has gotten on board with the same kinds of contemporary music, however, that competitive advantage seems to have disappeared.
Using the nomenclature of my old seminary prof, C. Peter Wagner, the AoG is a "First Wave" movement. By this he meant that it represented the "first wave" of the Holy Spirit, following the Azuza St. Revival in Los Angeles (1906-1915). The other big Pentecostal denomination is the Foursquare Gospel (cf. Jack Hayford). True Pentecostals can typically be expected to join one of the dozens of pentecostal bodies.
"Charismatics," represent a transdenominational movement that can be found in Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, independent, Episcopal, Presbyterian, etc. congregations. It is sometimes denominated as the "Second Wave" of the Holy Spirit in the 20th century. Unlike the original Pentecostals, charismatics were less doctrinal, more behavioral, less fundamental, more likely to hold views outside the conservative mainstream. For them, speaking in tongues was an ecstatic enablement that might be used as a "prayer language." Much of the initial success of the charismatics came among those who wanted "something more" from their faith or who believed that their mainline churches were full of "dead orthodoxy." Today, the lilt of a charismatic emphasis can be found in some pretty mainstream evangelicals (e.g., John Piper and Wayne Grudem). Indeed, it is not unusual to find an evangelical who sings songs popular in charismatic circles, enjoys a piety that is decidedly charismatic in origin, and includes practices once considered characteristic of "those charismatics."
Wagner spoke of the Vineyard as a "Third Wave" movement. It arose out of a schism in the Calvary Chapel movement between the more classically doctrinal Chuck Smith (who began as a true Pentecostal minister) and John Wimber. I know a fellow who recounts the blow-by-blow of the actual meeting where the two groups separated. Wimber was an ex-entertainer who has even been credited by some with the founding of the Righteous Brothers singing group. He turned out to be a bit of a pioneer in the Church Growth field, becoming the Founding Director of the Church Growth division at the Charles E. Fuller Institute of Evangelism and Church Growth. In the years following my graduation from Fuller, Wimber taught a course that was famously popular with the Fuller students. He emphasized the role of "signs and wonders" in facilitating the evangelistic explosion in the early church. Wimber sought to replicate the role of miracles as accrediting signs that the Holy Spirit would use to grow his church exponentially. In the class, students would actually "practice" signs and wonders. For what I could gather from reports of the class, they showed an inordinate interest in headaches, PMS, and leg lengthening. Students would line up with their hips against the wall, be told that one of their legs was shorter than the other, be surrounded by a group of students who would pray over them, and then report that their shorter leg "grew" back to parity with the other one.
I actually had breakfast with Wimber once in the '80s and heard him say that he participated in several raisings of the dead. Ironically, he died at 63 following a brain hemorrhage after bypass surgery.
Like ALL denoms in the U.S., sometimes you can find more diversity within any given denomination than between different ones. So, the following may be more simplistic and reductionistic than useful. However . . .
* Pentecostals - tend to be fundamental, tend to come from lower sociological strata, tend to emphasize doctrine as a litmus test differentiating insiders and outsiders. The AoG is a ginormous worldwide body with more than 66 million folks on their rolls. In more recent years, many of their pastors have become quite educated (e.g., Gordon Fee). When I was at Fuller in the 70s, the AoG folks were the third largest denominational group in the school.
* Charismatics - the term is elastic since it denotes those who share an experience rather than a doctrine. When it burst on the scene in the middle of the last century, some of the leaders were mainline Episcopalians, Baptists, and Lutherans. Today, it has a higher percentage of the Word of Faith types and is well represented among some of the ginormous big box independent churches. Whereas Pentecostals (e.g., AoG, Foursquare) lean in the direction of doctrine, charismatics are far more interested in experience and behavioral markers. A mainline (or evangelical) congregation may have cliques of charismatics within it who meet in small groups together. This was especially true during the 1970s when the charismatic movement proved quite divisive in many mainline and evangelical churches. Much ink was spilled defending against charismatics (e.g., John Stott's justly famous book and the one by John MacArthur which dealt with Pentecostals as well). One of the bywords of charismatic Christianity was uttered by J. Rodman Williams: "Doctrine divides, the Holy Spirit unites." Generally the charismatic movement tolerated a great deal of doctrinal, ecclesiastical, and ideological diversity. Centering on an "experience" of the Holy Spirit allowed for casual acceptance of higher criticism, progressive social views, etc.
* Vineyard - In the US, the Vineyard has emphasized church planting. A few years back they counted 600-650 congregations and about 150,000 members. With a founding by a musician, it is not surprising that they emphasize music and probably attract people in a given community due to their cool worship. Insofar as broad evangelicalism has gotten on board with the same kinds of contemporary music, however, that competitive advantage seems to have disappeared.
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Thanks, Dennis. Wagner was your prof? Interesting. I just finished a few books by Wagner and Wimber.
Wayne Grudem (Calvinist) went to a Vineyard church at one point.
There was a split during the Toronto Blessing movement and Wimber excommunicated Toronto, citing their failure to keep scripture as our basis, not experiences. After that Vineyard churches went both ways.
Some AoG churches have gone Calvinist.....there is a big one near the AoG seminary in Missouri with a Calvinist preacher. The AoG near me is into Joyce Meyer and her fellow heretics.
You really have to visit individual churches and talk to their leaders to figure out what they think, there is no uniform confessional sort of denominational doctrinal standard. From all I have ever heard they both ordain women pastors.
There was a split during the Toronto Blessing movement and Wimber excommunicated Toronto, citing their failure to keep scripture as our basis, not experiences. After that Vineyard churches went both ways.
Some AoG churches have gone Calvinist.....there is a big one near the AoG seminary in Missouri with a Calvinist preacher. The AoG near me is into Joyce Meyer and her fellow heretics.
You really have to visit individual churches and talk to their leaders to figure out what they think, there is no uniform confessional sort of denominational doctrinal standard. From all I have ever heard they both ordain women pastors.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
For some reason I thought Grudem was still Vineyard.
The AOG teaches that speaking in tongues is for everybody and that the first and necessary indication of being filled with the Spirit is doing so. Vineyard permits speaking in tongues but does not mandate it. It has a less dogmatic, more permissive and open attitude toward supernatural manifestations, or at least they did. I've not attended either kind of church in many years, so both may have changed. But the AOG doctrine concerning tongues is written out and thus cast in concrete as far as the denomination is concerned.
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
Yeah, when you are as old as I am, you've seen it all. Bob Gundry, Moises Silva, Rod Rosenbladt, C. Peter Wagner, George Ladd, Geoffrey Bromiley, Ray Anderson, Paul Jewett, Ralph P. Martin, William S. LaSor, Jack Rogers, Everett Harrison, Colin Brown, James Daane, Robert Tuttle, John D.W. Watts, Glen Barker, Robert Munger, Ralph Winter, Lewis Smedes, etc.
I spent most of the last 40 years objecting to various ideas taught to me during college and seminary.
It is interesting to me that after being one of the pioneers of "church growth," Wagner reportedly came to the view that he could not understand why the ideas make so much sense but just do not work in practice as well as they do in theory! He ultimately went in a hard charismatic/third wave direction believing that church growth by itself was all technique without the power of the H.S. His current work incorporates notions of territorial spirits (graphing the "principalities and powers" in particular localities in terms of which demon is where on the local hierarchy) in what he calls the "apostolic and prophetic" movement aka New Apostolic Reformation.
You've "just finished" reading some books by Wagner and Wimber?!? Wow!!! I never cease to be amazed at the range of your reading and intellectual curiosity! My "to do" list of books would have to get a WHOLE LOT shorter before either of them would make it to the top of my list. But, as usual, you are the man who reads more widely than just about anyone on the PB!
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Was Ladd part of the Third Wave movement? I know Wimber really used Ladd.
I default to Vern Poythress on territorial spirits.
I found them at a used library book sale. All totaled no more than .75 cents. I needed a break from reading Plantinga, Alston, Moreland, and modal logic. Wimber was very light reading after those guys! But seriously, I am doing some research on spiritual warfare and they had some interesting ideas. Obviously, they went off the deep end, but still I found some things worth reading.
timmopussycat
Puritan Board Junior
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Thanks for beating me to the punch. I read that article earlier this week. He seemed to agree with some of Wagner's claims (e.g., Daniel talks about a prince of persia) but notes you really can't build an entire theology off of Daniel 9-10. I do like how Poythress talks about "motion" and movement in regard to demons.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
Another difference is that AOG is officially pre-trib, from what I understand. As has been hinted at here with their appropriation of Ladd's theology of the kingdom, with the notable exception of of the amillennialist Sam Storms (who I think was associated with Vineyard and/or KC Prophets in the 80's) the main Third Wave writers have been "historic" premil, which basically just means post-trib. This has included Wimber, Grudem and Mike Bickle. I'm not sure if Michael L Brown would consider himself to be "Third Wave" but he is also not pre-trib.
For years I've thought that essentially postmil theologies like the Latter Rain are more compatible with pentecostalism since it is supposed to be a recovery of apostolic power to varying degrees. I've come across some 19th Century postmil writers (and not holiness ones--the Baptist J.M. Pendleton is one example) who said there would be such a recovery of apostolic gifts in the "end times" just prior to the Second Coming. Holiness movements before the 1920's seem to have been more postmil and opposed to premil as well. Premil was much more common among Baptists and Presbyterians. My guess is that AOG and Pentecostalism generally adopted pretrib because it was becoming popular after WWI.
The Third Wave is all for tongues but seems to have had more of an emphasis on healing and prophecy. At least early on it was also marked by physical manifestations such as jerking, being "slain in the Spirit" and so on. But some of that kind of thing has been present to varying degrees in revivals and awakenings through the years and hasn't necessarily been limited to pentecostal and charismatic movements.
With regard to large pentecostal denominations, I think the historically black Church of God in Christ is much larger than Foursquare, at least in the USA. (It appears that the majority of Foursquare members are outside of the USA.) I think that Church of God (Cleveland, TN) and the Oneness Pentecostal UPC probably are too.
Grudem attends Scottsdale Bible Church. I don't know what their position on the gifts is. Their statement of faith is fairly basic. Based on his contribution to "Why I am a Baptist" ca. 2001, he was SBC at that time. So if he was ever officially a member of a Vineyard assembly, it would have been prior to that.
For years I've thought that essentially postmil theologies like the Latter Rain are more compatible with pentecostalism since it is supposed to be a recovery of apostolic power to varying degrees. I've come across some 19th Century postmil writers (and not holiness ones--the Baptist J.M. Pendleton is one example) who said there would be such a recovery of apostolic gifts in the "end times" just prior to the Second Coming. Holiness movements before the 1920's seem to have been more postmil and opposed to premil as well. Premil was much more common among Baptists and Presbyterians. My guess is that AOG and Pentecostalism generally adopted pretrib because it was becoming popular after WWI.
The Third Wave is all for tongues but seems to have had more of an emphasis on healing and prophecy. At least early on it was also marked by physical manifestations such as jerking, being "slain in the Spirit" and so on. But some of that kind of thing has been present to varying degrees in revivals and awakenings through the years and hasn't necessarily been limited to pentecostal and charismatic movements.
With regard to large pentecostal denominations, I think the historically black Church of God in Christ is much larger than Foursquare, at least in the USA. (It appears that the majority of Foursquare members are outside of the USA.) I think that Church of God (Cleveland, TN) and the Oneness Pentecostal UPC probably are too.
Grudem attends Scottsdale Bible Church. I don't know what their position on the gifts is. Their statement of faith is fairly basic. Based on his contribution to "Why I am a Baptist" ca. 2001, he was SBC at that time. So if he was ever officially a member of a Vineyard assembly, it would have been prior to that.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I didn't know AoG was officially pre-trib (not that I plan on joining any time soon. LOL!). For some reason I thought Michael Brown was pre-trib. For all of his "quirks," Bickle is one of the best presenters of historic premil out there.
I wonder if this is why some charismatics easily latched on to Rushdoony.
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