The two "wills" of God?

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For many years after first believing in the 5 points of Calvinism I was taught that God both decreed things to happen and allowed things to happen. Now, as I am still learning, I am beginning to see how God could ultimately only have a decreed will. I will assert that in believing this way I am not accusing God of being the author of sin. I just simply cannot see a 100% sovereign God "allowing" anything. For Him to allow something would mean that that something was working outside of His ultimate control . I am not alone in thinking this way and it may seem heretical but I think it is a good issue to be discussed and am open to anyone's input on the subject. There just may be some other Clarkians out there I hope ;)
 
OneOfHisElect said:
For many years after first believing in the 5 points of Calvinism I was taught that God both decreed things to happen and allowed things to happen. Now, as I am still learning, I am beginning to see how God could ultimately only have a decreed will. I will assert that in believing this way I am not accusing God of being the author of sin. I just simply cannot see a 100% sovereign God "allowing" anything. For Him to allow something would mean that that something was working outside of His ultimate control . I am not alone in thinking this way and it may seem heretical but I think it is a good issue to be discussed and am open to anyone's input on the subject. There just may be some other Clarkians out there I hope ;)
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Does God allow people to follow their wicked will by removing restraint?
 
Does God allow man to do wickedly? Or does God decree sin to be committed in order to accomplish His purpose? He hardened people's hearts throughout the OT and used Judas in the NT all in order to fulfill His purposes. So does God allow sin sometimes? All the time? Or has the sin committed been decreed since the foundation of the world? To best illustrate the point, could Judas have refused to sell out Christ? I think not but again I'm still learning.
 
Would it not be better to speak of two modes of the one divine will or two distinctions? Saying two wills runs into problems when we come to the 6th Ecumenical Council, for will was read as a faculty of nature.
 
My 2 cents:

Everything happens by the will of God. Even if we say that God "permits" something, He still willed to permit it. So it all comes back to Gods will. There is no escape from this fact once we acknowledge a sovereign God.

God might harden someones heart which causes the person to sin. However, He does not force the person to act (controlling his limbs or anything similar), rather the person freely chooses to act based on the circumstances God has placed him/her in (hardened heart, outside temptations/restraints etc)

1 Kings 22:19 - 23 comes to mind. God sent a lying spirit into the hearts of the prophets. The prophets responded to the spirits temptations and lied.

This is not lawful, the prophet ought to have resisted the temptation. Likewise, God did was not the author of sin, the prophet acted freely.

So God willed that the prophet should lie, but it is not Gods will that people should lie. Am I being theologically sound here? Hopefully
 
There is also a "prescriptive will" of God, that is, God's will for mankind. E.g. Don't steal, don't lie, don't commit adultery. His permissive will is that He allows us to steal, lie and commit adultery.

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).
 
Turretin and others were wise to say that these so-called "wills" in God were actually distinctions or modes of the one divine will. Strictly speaking, there is only one will (classically defined) in God
 
I agree that His will is ultimately one divine will. I simply see all events and acts of nature and mankind as being before ordained in eternity past. Again, to say that God permits an event to happen would mean that the event was opperating outside of the will of God and God has only the power to restrain it or permit it to take place. This, in my thinking, would take away from His ultimate control of all things. There cannot be anything opperating in this universe without being under the ultimate control of God. The two modes of one divine will is a good idea to think on and I certainly intend on doing so.
 
Philip said:
OneOfHisElect said:
I simply see all events and acts of nature and mankind as being before ordained in eternity past.
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"Eternity past" is a meaningless term. "Past" is a temporal term, and therefore can have no reference to eternity, which is time-free.
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"Eternity past" has been the accepted phrase to refer to God's activity, existence, etc. outside of temporal frameworks. Our finite nature precludes the ability to describe eternality with eternal language.
 
Not yet Jim but I loved his book, "God and evil problem solved." I am currently working his book, "What is saving faith?" He is becoming one of my favorite authors!
 
BGF said:
Philip said:
OneOfHisElect said:
I simply see all events and acts of nature and mankind as being before ordained in eternity past.
Click to expand...

"Eternity past" is a meaningless term. "Past" is a temporal term, and therefore can have no reference to eternity, which is time-free.
Click to expand...

"Eternity past" has been the accepted phrase to refer to God's activity, existence, etc. outside of temporal frameworks. Our finite nature precludes the ability to describe eternality with eternal language.
Click to expand...

My concern here is that if we are going to talk about God's eternal decree, then we need to begin with the orthodox understanding of the Triune God as simple, eternal, and absolutely distinct from the world.

Simplicity here means that there are no real distinctions in God, only conceptual ones. This means, in turn, that God is pure act, and that his action is itself absolutely simple. The acts of God are plural only within the constraints of temporal sequence, not in eternity.

Atemporality (however that is spelled out) and the creator-creature distinction both entail that the ordinary providence of God works through secondary causes in the sense that these things, which derive their being from the creator, are allowed creaturely freedom within the sovereignty of God. All things work toward God's purpose of their own volition, whether they are aware of it or not.
 
The issue with pure actuality, unless properly defined, is the notion of immobility. Berkhof would argue Systematic Theology, 59:

The divine immutability should not be understood as implying immobility, as if there were no movement in God…. The Bible teaches us that God enters into manifold relations with man and, as it were, lives their lives with them. There is change round about Him, change in the relations of men to Him, but there is no change in His being, His attributes, His purpose, His motives of action, or His promises.​
 
Though things change as we see them from our viewpoint, do those changes ever take God by suprise? If He has created all things including the concept of a future then there could be nothing that happens or changes without His eternal decree for it to do so. I may not have understood your statement but this is the answer I would give to it.
 
OneOfHisElect said:
Though things change as we see them from our viewpoint, do those changes ever take God by suprise?
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No, but what does this have to do with whether created beings have creaturely freedom? Certain reformed theologians have reckoned causal determinism to be a logical consequence of the reformed teaching of the decrees of God, while certain others, like Jonathan Edwards, have launched into pure speculation. However, causal determinism is deism by another name, while Edwards comes perilously close to panentheism.
 
I came from a New Calvinism Baptist mega-church that taught the "Two Wills of God" position. It made a lot of sense then, but not so much now.

Dig through some of the articles on this site under Sovereign Grace, Five Points of Calvinism, God's Effectual Saving Desire, and Uncommon Grace. A lot of good stuff in there that might be helpful with your questions.
 
Thanks Nick I will be sure to do that! I do still have a few questions but I must admit that I am pretty settled on the subject. I love seeing the views of other concerning this matter it really strengthens my belief.
 
What I mean is 2 different ways that He accomplishes His will so it my be better to say 2 modes of the same will. Does He allow something to happen and also decree something to happen? Or is everything decreed since eternity past?
 
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