They say the film is never tha same as the book. Well I am reading the book (Mark Dever) after the sermons (Gregory N. Barkman). The book came first just in case you were wondering and was used for study at Gregory Barkmans church.

I am amused to find some of the anecdotes from the book (Mark Dever) that I thought were from Gregory Barkman. It is also funny to find myself agreeing with the ommission of some pasages in the sermons.

The book itself is good reading of sound doctrine. It has made me think again about the role of preaching. Firstly the importance and centrality of Biblical exposition - which gives rise to Biblical Theology. Gathering all these points of doctrine this in turn gives rise to Systematic Theology. This seems so clear and obvious and yet it needs saying.

If anyone has read the book I would be particularly interested in your thoughts on expository preaching as opposed to topical (pg 39-42). The former ensures the spiritual growth of both Preacher and congregation, the latter the growth of the congregation to the stature of the preacher. Controversial I know but there it is.

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Scottish Reformed Baptist No.2
member,Thurso Baptist Church
Scotland

specialist subject: Creationist Genetics
interests: holiness

This Pastor, Mark Dever is coming to Lubbock TX of all places to speak and teach this week.

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Richard H. King
Providence PCA
Lubbock, Texas
"No matter how far a man goes, he eventually finds out God's already there." John Wayne - the last line in "Chisum"

I haven't yet read the book but my dh and I recently came out of a Charismatic church where the pastor openly bragged about teaching only "topical, practical" sermons and denigrated "hi-falutin' doctrine" - his sermons were full of anectdotes, jokes, but very little of Jesus Christ. The man has been at our former church for almost three years and the people are starving for the Word of God - the problem is, starving people eventually reach the point where they no longer feel hunger or desire to eat. It is such a blessing to now be in a church where the Word of God is properly exposited and 18 months of such a diet have made a huge difference in us. There isn't enough money in the world to tempt us back to that place.

Pray about starting a bible study with some of your friends from the old church. The sheep will follow the shepherd in His word;

Be patient with the friends who come,and set it up where you can really let the scripture open up. Invest in some tapes of your pastor's sermons that really glorify God, and let them taste and see that the Lord is good.

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Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

I've read the book and found it to be sound. The only thing that ruffled my feathers was the title. "9 Marks of a Healthy Church." Must there be nine? Couldn't there be 35? There's a randomness about it that I object to. That said, it's a fine book with a lot of good things to say. Regarding the topic of preaching....

Expository preaching vs. topical is a bit too simplistic for my tastes. Can't a topical sermon be preached in an expository manner? For instance, if baptism was the subject couldn't the preacher do an exposition of Romans 6? I find that expository preaching is much easier when the preacher has the time to go through a book verse by verse. Sometimes preaching schedules don't allow it. That is the case in my church. There is a preaching rotation that lends itself to shorter expositions of scripture. If a speaker only has the pulpit one month out of four that creates a dynamic that must be taken into account when picking a sermon topic or series.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Expository preaching vs. topical is a bit too simplistic for my tastes. Can't a topical sermon be preached in an expository manner?




Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my experience a topical sermon is one that is built around the opinions of the speaker, ie, on divorce, raising children, the evils of ipods, etc. The focus is on what the speaker thinks and Scripture is only used as a support for his views - proof-texting at its worst - and falls under the category of man-centred moralism where the congregation is told what it must do (law) rather than what Christ has done (grace). It becomes a matter of obedience to authority as a work rather than obedience to Christ out of gratitude for what He has done. It does incredible spiritual damage to those who sit under this form of teaching.

Sue, I think it depends on how topical is defined. Lets say I want to teach on baptism (the example I gave earlier). If I just pick passages to support my particular view of baptism I am doing what you are saying, offering my opinions. But if I am dealing with the text then I am preaching in an expository manner. To be certain I have definite opinions about what I am preaching, but what preacher doesn't?

I have seen some miserable topical preaching. For example: in order to prove that Christians should witness the following three points are offered:

1. The prophets proclaimed God's word so we should witness.

2. Jesus proclaimed God's word so we should witness.

3. The Apostles proclaimed God's word so we should witness.

Of course each point is replete with supporting verses. It may make for a great talk and may even inspire some to go out and share their faith, but is a travesty of the pulpit.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Oh, I agree fully - what you are describing is what topical preaching should be - an exposition on a particular subject. When done properly it is a great way to get across a message. But.....much of what is called topical preaching is what I experienced first hand in my former church and it ain't pretty. I think we are talking about two ends of the same spectrum.

Aren't some of the Puritan's, or all of the Puritan's, topical in their sermons. I am thinking of Jonathan Edwards "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," Spurgeon (I know he is not a Puritan), these two come to mind off the top of my head. Granted, the Puritans were well versed and studied in the bible, topical preachers nowadays are not.

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Erick Bohndorf, Covenant Baptist Church, KS
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
The question for us today is, will we be like the majority of Israel and continue to look in fear at the giants in the land and urge our fellow Christians to be "realistic," or will we be like Joshua and Caleb and faithfully follow our king, trusting to fulfill every one of his promises completely?

"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," is a textual sermon based on Deut 32:35.

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

The term Topical is definitely one that is used in different ways. There are as pointed out many sermons that are topical, basically meaning that the speaker wanted to say what he thought and picked and chose verses in context and out just to prove his point. Then there is Topical meaning directing the focus of the message towards a particular doctrine that is addressed throughout many verses in the scriptures.

There is no place for opinions whatsoever in preaching. And while there may be a place for Biblical topical preaching to address certain matters of relevance in the church. As part of preaching the whole counsel of God expository preaching verse by verse, chapter by chapter is an excellent method. Eventually all doctrines will be addressed. And the preaching is not then subject to the wants and leanings of the Preacher or his congregation, but it is subject to the Word of God alone.

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Bryan Riddle
1689 London Baptist Confession
Bethel Baptist Church Owasso, Oklahoma

Mark's stuff is generally quite good, the problems (from a Presbyterian standpoint) really only have to do with what he leaves out. This is especially pronounced not so much in his homiletic (although it is there also) as it is in his ecclesiology - which happens to be no small part of his ministry! But that for another time.

It has been awhile since I have read his works, but I have read a number of his sermons more recently. I would say that it is not good enough merely to say that expository is better than topical. Verse by verse, chapter by chapter preaching can be worse in the hands of some ministers than a topical sermon in at the hands of one well-trained. Some of Mark's preaching can reflect this at times (not to say by any means that his academic studies have been insufficient!), as it can tend to end up moralistic in some of the sermons that I have covered.

I have a good friend, now a minister in the PCA, who loved his time during which he attended Capitol Hill, but who saw the strand of moralism in the preaching to be a real burden to he and his wife (only being able to identify the issue after coming to WSC!). This seems to be a difficulty that reformed/reforming/ish Baptists fall into, whether Dever, Begg, MacArthur, or others. It has to do with a different theology of preaching, as well as only a partial appropriation of a full-orbed, covenantal hermeneutic. A chapter of Scripture may be preached without ever broaching the law/Gospel issues, and covenantal themes which lie beneath them, that make the preaching of Christ so powerful.

You may see this if you set the preaching of a Reformed Baptist and a Reformed/Presbyterian minister side by side as they cover a passage, say, like Joshua chapter 4, the results will be drastically different. From a good Reformed minister you will receive a sermon that will in some way touch upon the significance of covenantal signs and remembrance, easily connecting the significance of these OT signs to Christ and then to the NT sacraments which he has given to the church, whereas from many Reformed Baptists/Baptists you will not hear of the covenantal significance of that passage, of how it relates to the sacraments, or possibly even of its pointing toward Christ! You will definitely get a sermon on the importance of remembrance, even of the importance of remembering God and his mighty works in your life, but you will not always get Christ, and you will likely never get the covenant-to Christ-to the sacraments connection. This underlying theological whole in one's preaching is indispensable for great Christian preaching, whether expository or topical in nature.

Of course, I have not heard Mark preach on that passage myself, so maybe he gets Christ in there, but I'm sure that a connection to the significance of the Christian baptism of children would be hard to pick up in his sermon

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Adam J. Myer
Waiting on the September accessions board.
Evergreen PCA
Salem, Oregon

That about sums your comments up for me.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Yes, I knew that I should have kept the parenthetical comment in there that I have heard several other reformed Baptists on that passage, all of whose preaching fit the profile that I lined out for you. I don't doubt that Mark's would be much different, since the theology that underlies it would be the same, and I have read through a fair number of his sermons, as mentioned, which gives me a good idea of his approach to preaching. And did I mention that I heard him preach at WSC? And did I mention that my friend sat under his preaching for three years and would confirm the assessment? Again, I like a fair bit of what Mark is doing, but that is no reason to ignore deficiencies in the Baptist hermeneutic (or ecclesiology).

If you think you can sum up the full of my comments above by taking a snippet from the end - well then your fragmented approach to a summation is no better than than the typical baptist's fragmented approach to hermeneutics and theology.

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Adam J. Myer
Waiting on the September accessions board.
Evergreen PCA
Salem, Oregon

Adam,

I'm usually not prone to quick snippets and reacted quickly because I have been privileged to hear more than a few Baptist sermons that proved to be the antithesis of what you described. Maybe I just happened to hear the exceptions to the rule. If you want to hear a Reformed Baptist who takes a distinct covenantal approach to scripture listed to David Campbell of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

I'm sorry for reducing your comments to a one-liner. It was a quick emotional reaction to your categorization that rubbed me the wrong way.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Thank you for the apology, brother. My response to you wasn't completely free of the flesh either. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out!

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Adam J. Myer
Waiting on the September accessions board.
Evergreen PCA
Salem, Oregon

btw to be fair David Campbell's background is from the Free Church of Scotland; so while he's a Baptist he does have a covenantal background.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

After visiting various churches over the past two years most of which do expository preaching, I would have to say quality of preaching is dependant upon the one preaching, not the style being used.

There are some who simply read a passage and then talk about what they think for 45 minutes. Then there are others who painstakingly pour through every verse and suck all the life out of it. Then there are others who say they are expository simply because they preach through a book of the bible but are simply giving an overview of it.

I heard more than one preacher state how nice it was to preach expositorily because they don't have to worry about what to preach, they just go onto the next text. Others take pride in how long they take to pour through a book of the bible, one local preacher spent 7 years going through Luke.

I have yet to hear an expository preacher, one in the true sense, who did not insert their own opinions when talking about the text. I know the danger is that with topical preaching it is basically indoctrination into what the pastor thinks of everything. I would have to say it is a person by person thing rather than one style being superior to the other.

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Erick Bohndorf, Covenant Baptist Church, KS
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
The question for us today is, will we be like the majority of Israel and continue to look in fear at the giants in the land and urge our fellow Christians to be "realistic," or will we be like Joshua and Caleb and faithfully follow our king, trusting to fulfill every one of his promises completely?