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04-12-2008, 07:23 PM
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| | | The Democratization of American Christianity -- Nathan O. Hatch
I've seen this book referenced in the footnotes of a number of books I've read in the past year so I figured I'd check it out:
Anyone else read it? 
__________________ Casey Bessette
Westminster OPC • West Suburbs of Chicago • My Blog: Paradise Regained
"It is part of the calling of the ekklesia to learn to know the love of Christ that surpasses all knowledge and also to make known within the world of science 'the manifold wisdom of God' in order that the final end of theology, as of all things, may be that the name of the Lord is glorified. Theology and dogmatics, too, exist for the Lord's sake." — Herman Bavinck, Reformed Dogmatics, vol. 1, p. 46
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04-12-2008, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CaseyBessette  | Definitely one of the ten most important extrabiblical books that I have ever read in my life. I couldn't recommend it enough. Stay away from it, though, if you don't like questioning your own presuppositions.
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Philip A - Member, High Desert United Reformed Church, Apple Valley, CA.
"Reason also is choice" - Milton, Paradise Lost
"And then shall every word also seem consistent to him, if he for his part diligently read the Scriptures in company with those who are presbyters in the Church, among whom is the apostolic doctrine, as I have pointed out." - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:XXXII.
"where there is text, there is hope" - Richard A. Muller
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04-12-2008, 07:38 PM
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Oh, don't tempt me to read it so . .  . . I won't be able to get to it right away! 
__________________ Casey Bessette
Westminster OPC • West Suburbs of Chicago • My Blog: Paradise Regained
"It is part of the calling of the ekklesia to learn to know the love of Christ that surpasses all knowledge and also to make known within the world of science 'the manifold wisdom of God' in order that the final end of theology, as of all things, may be that the name of the Lord is glorified. Theology and dogmatics, too, exist for the Lord's sake." — Herman Bavinck, Reformed Dogmatics, vol. 1, p. 46
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04-12-2008, 09:07 PM
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While I hate democracy with all my heart, this book was a major conversation partner in my American Religious Studies in college. For the most part, Hatch is accurate in his assessments, I think.
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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
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04-12-2008, 09:49 PM
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I read it a long time ago and thought it was very good. I think a lot of the historical data would overlap what you could find in Iain Murray's Revival and Revivalism (which, incidentally, refers to this book), but I think the book is very well worth reading in its own right.
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06-21-2008, 06:20 PM
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I just began reading this today. It is quite good.
Philip, can you elaborate on what you mean by the "presuppositions" comment? Religious or Political?
Thanks!
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06-21-2008, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua I just began reading this today. It is quite good.
Philip, can you elaborate on what you mean by the "presuppositions" comment? Religious or Political?
Thanks! | Ah, that's the trick  I'm referring to political and social presuppositions that spill over into our religious thinking. This usually affects ecclesiology, but also has an impact on how we think about issues of biblical interpretation, and in general makes us susceptible to bad theological arguments that appeal to commonly held social and political values.
Or the short answer, read it and see....
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Philip A - Member, High Desert United Reformed Church, Apple Valley, CA.
"Reason also is choice" - Milton, Paradise Lost
"And then shall every word also seem consistent to him, if he for his part diligently read the Scriptures in company with those who are presbyters in the Church, among whom is the apostolic doctrine, as I have pointed out." - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:XXXII.
"where there is text, there is hope" - Richard A. Muller
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06-21-2008, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivanhoe While I hate democracy with all my heart, this book was a major conversation partner in my American Religious Studies in college. For the most part, Hatch is accurate in his assessments, I think. | Jacob,
Can you elaborate on why you hate Democracy? I may agree with you.
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06-21-2008, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Philip A Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua I just began reading this today. It is quite good.
Philip, can you elaborate on what you mean by the "presuppositions" comment? Religious or Political?
Thanks! | Ah, that's the trick I'm referring to political and social presuppositions that spill over into our religious thinking. This usually affects ecclesiology, but also has an impact on how we think about issues of biblical interpretation, and in general makes us susceptible to bad theological arguments that appeal to commonly held social and political values.
Or the short answer, read it and see.... | Well, I suppose what I'm getting at is this: I detest how "democracy" has pervaded the church. However, I -at least at this point in time- would champion personal liberty in the political sense (i.e. not putting up with tyranny, so long as its guided by another civil magistrate). I would identify (politically speaking, not ecclesiastically) with Jeffersonian ideals and principles for the most part; however, I don't see where it must spill into our ecclesiology. Note: I see how it has, but I don't see that it must. Anyway, at this point I'm rambling.
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06-21-2008, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanhoe While I hate democracy with all my heart, this book was a major conversation partner in my American Religious Studies in college. For the most part, Hatch is accurate in his assessments, I think. | Jacob,
Can you elaborate on why you hate Democracy? I may agree with you. | Democracy is mob rule. A representative republic is better ... but we see how that's worked out.  |
06-21-2008, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua Democracy is mob rule. A representative republic is better ... but we see how that's worked out. | Actually, a THEOCRATIC representative republic is best, and that is what every true Christian should be working toward.
"The kingdoms is of this world are now the kingdom of our Lord and Christ" - Revelation 11:15.
"Jesus Christ, the ruler of of the kings of the earth" - Rev. 1:5
"Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
- Psalm 2:10-12
Of course, I am quite confident that Hatch, Noll, or Marsden would never dream of considering such a thing as the Lordship of Christ in THAT regard.
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Randy Harris
Heritage Church (Independent)
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06-21-2008, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harris Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua Democracy is mob rule. A representative republic is better ... but we see how that's worked out. | Actually, a THEOCRATIC representative republic is best, and that is what every true Christian should be working toward.
"The kingdoms is of this world are now the kingdom of our Lord and Christ" - Revelation 11:15.
"Jesus Christ, the ruler of of the kings of the earth" - Rev. 1:5
"Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
- Psalm 2:10-12
Of course, I am quite confident that Hatch, Noll, or Marsden would never dream of considering such a thing as the Lordship of Christ in THAT regard. | Note: I did say better for representative republic, not best. |
06-21-2008, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua Well, I suppose what I'm getting at is this: I detest how "democracy" has pervaded the church. However, I -at least at this point in time- would champion personal liberty in the political sense (i.e. not putting up with tyranny, so long as its guided by another civil magistrate). I would identify (politically speaking, not ecclesiastically) with Jeffersonian ideals and principles for the most part; however, I don't see where it must spill into our ecclesiology. Note: I see how it has, but I don't see that it must. Anyway, at this point I'm rambling. | You don't mean to suggest that there could be TWO kingdoms, do you? 
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Philip A - Member, High Desert United Reformed Church, Apple Valley, CA.
"Reason also is choice" - Milton, Paradise Lost
"And then shall every word also seem consistent to him, if he for his part diligently read the Scriptures in company with those who are presbyters in the Church, among whom is the apostolic doctrine, as I have pointed out." - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:XXXII.
"where there is text, there is hope" - Richard A. Muller
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06-21-2008, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Philip A Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua Well, I suppose what I'm getting at is this: I detest how "democracy" has pervaded the church. However, I -at least at this point in time- would champion personal liberty in the political sense (i.e. not putting up with tyranny, so long as its guided by another civil magistrate). I would identify (politically speaking, not ecclesiastically) with Jeffersonian ideals and principles for the most part; however, I don't see where it must spill into our ecclesiology. Note: I see how it has, but I don't see that it must. Anyway, at this point I'm rambling. | You don't mean to suggest that there could be TWO kingdoms, do you? | Now you're throwin' out hoop-la (read: stuff this country boy ain't understanding) to me. |
06-22-2008, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Philip A Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua Well, I suppose what I'm getting at is this: I detest how "democracy" has pervaded the church. However, I -at least at this point in time- would champion personal liberty in the political sense (i.e. not putting up with tyranny, so long as its guided by another civil magistrate). I would identify (politically speaking, not ecclesiastically) with Jeffersonian ideals and principles for the most part; however, I don't see where it must spill into our ecclesiology. Note: I see how it has, but I don't see that it must. Anyway, at this point I'm rambling. | You don't mean to suggest that there could be TWO kingdoms, do you? | You mean Two Kingdoms like Turretin or like WSCAL? 
CT
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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC
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06-22-2008, 12:27 AM
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Let's just say this: From the 100+ pages I've read thus far, it seems that Hatch may be implying that a commitment to political republicanism will inevitably work itself out in one's ecclesiology; but I don't know if that follows. Although, I must admit, I've been wondering about life under a monarchy, and how it might "put people in their places," with respect to understanding their "station in life."
There's an interesting portion wherein he talks about the Methodists' and Baptists' conversion of slaves as being amazingly more than that of the Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc. He then shows how the Methodists and Baptists took the time to go to the highways and byways and communicating on the level of the people listening. Were the Presbyterians and Anglicans really guilty of being too complicated and unloving, or were the Methodists, Baptists, et al just watering down the Biblical message?  |
06-22-2008, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by joshua Let's just say this: From the 100+ pages I've read thus far, it seems that Hatch may be implying that a commitment to political republicanism will inevitably work itself out in one's ecclesiology; but I don't know if that follows. | That wasn't the impression I got from the book; as I read it, he didn't seem to be making any point at all regarding political commitments, only what happens when political ideas are assumed to apply within the church.
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Philip A - Member, High Desert United Reformed Church, Apple Valley, CA.
"Reason also is choice" - Milton, Paradise Lost
"And then shall every word also seem consistent to him, if he for his part diligently read the Scriptures in company with those who are presbyters in the Church, among whom is the apostolic doctrine, as I have pointed out." - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:XXXII.
"where there is text, there is hope" - Richard A. Muller
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