» Site Navigation | | | » Online Users: 71 | | 20 members and 51 guests | | Calvinist Cowboy, caoclan, ColdSilverMoon, duncan001, kvanlaan, Nomad, Phillip, pickwick, Puritan Sailor, refbaptdude, satz, SolaScriptura, Southern Presbyterian, TimV, toddpedlar | | Most users ever online was 856, 07-05-2007 at 11:19 PM. | |  | 
01-21-2008, 12:27 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | | Covenant, Justification and Pastoral Ministry
Just got this in Belfast today; anyone else read it?
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
01-21-2008, 01:13 PM
| | Puritanboard Senior | | Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK
Posts: 2,802
Thanks: 197
Thanked 394 Times in 256 Posts
| | |
Yep, I thought it was very good although some of the earlier chapters went a little over my head due to the Greek and Hebrew.
__________________
Richard
CofE
UK
| 
01-21-2008, 01:15 PM
|  | Administrator | | Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hague, North Dakota
Posts: 2,726
Thanks: 840
Thanked 2,127 Times in 734 Posts
| | |
It is an extremely helpful book, in my opinion.
| 
01-21-2008, 01:16 PM
|  | Administrator | | Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hague, North Dakota
Posts: 2,726
Thanks: 840
Thanked 2,127 Times in 734 Posts
| | |
P.S. I especially enjoyed the articles by Duguid, Van Drunen/Clark, and Clark.
| 
01-21-2008, 01:25 PM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cypress, California
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
| | |
Great book!
__________________
D.L.Cox
Christ Reformed Chruch, Anaheim, Ca.
URC
| 
01-21-2008, 02:08 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | |
Everyone loves it!!
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
01-21-2008, 02:09 PM
|  | Administrator | | Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hague, North Dakota
Posts: 2,726
Thanks: 840
Thanked 2,127 Times in 734 Posts
| | |
Except the FV. I expect that the NPP guys don't like it very much either.
| 
01-21-2008, 02:21 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbaggins Except the FV. I expect that the NPP guys don't like it very much either. | Well, I was talking about PB members.
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
01-21-2008, 02:25 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leduc, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,487
Thanks: 234
Thanked 821 Times in 435 Posts
| | |
Daniel:
The book was well done and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)
| 
01-21-2008, 02:31 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Poimen Daniel:
The book was well done and I thoroughly enjoyed it. | Another thumbs-up
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
01-21-2008, 02:54 PM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 665
Thanks: 57
Thanked 102 Times in 58 Posts
| | |
My elder has it and recommends it. He says it's quite scholarly with perhaps more footnotes than actual text (a good thing). And when he's finished he will lend it to me.
__________________
Kevin Guillory
Pastor
Redeemer Christian Congregation
Baltimore, MD I don't interpret Scripture. Scripture
interprets itself. And in the process ...
Scripture interprets me! | 
01-24-2008, 12:19 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: ND
Posts: 1,137
Thanks: 246
Thanked 173 Times in 125 Posts
| |
I'm reading it right now and it's excellent! | 
01-24-2008, 01:36 PM
|  | Puritanboard Senior | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,026
Thanks: 933
Thanked 272 Times in 180 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie
Just got this in Belfast today; anyone else read it? | I have started it but not read through the entire book. I really like it and would highly recommend it. Scott is a great theolog (a term Robert Reymond used in systematics at Knox Seminary).
__________________
Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:
| 
01-24-2008, 04:11 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | |
When I finish John Frame's book I will have to start it.
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
01-25-2008, 08:45 AM
|  | Puritanboard Senior | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,026
Thanks: 933
Thanked 272 Times in 180 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie When I finish John Frame's book I will have to start it. | I hope you do not buy into his view of the regulative principle
__________________
Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:
| 
01-25-2008, 08:46 AM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie When I finish John Frame's book I will have to start it. | I hope you do not buy into his view of the regulative principle  | No; and double no.
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
05-09-2008, 06:00 PM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mairinque, São Paulo, Brazil
Posts: 443
Thanks: 223
Thanked 110 Times in 66 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Theogenes I'm reading it right now and it's excellent!  |
__________________
Carlos Eduardo de Oliveira
Member
Presbyterian Church in Aluminio
Mairinque, São Paulo, Brazil
| 
05-09-2008, 08:08 PM
| | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 849
Thanks: 120
Thanked 530 Times in 220 Posts
| |
For a healthy critique of this book, I encourage you to read Rev. Mark Garcia's review No Reformed Doctrine of Justification
Also, his recent lectures at the Thirteenth Annual Lynnwood Reformed Conference address many of these issues, and I think are valuable. Lynnwood Orthodox Presbyterian Church (under: audio-13th conference)
Not everyone in the anti-FV reformed camp is convinced the direction of this book is the best way to answer FV.
| 
05-09-2008, 08:23 PM
|  | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Clarksburg, WV
Posts: 10,059
Thanks: 4,187
Thanked 1,968 Times in 1,260 Posts
| | |
Another book for me to buy... My wife is going to kill me.
__________________ Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div Candidate Under Care Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church Member: Fairmount ARP Church Pittsburgh, PA Attending: Currently Regular Supply at PC(USA) congregations in WV (July 5 & 12 - Belington Presbyterian Church) "We are deprived of a leader than whom the whole world would scarcely obtain a greater, whether in knowledge of true religion or in integrity and innocence of life, or in thirst for study of the most holy things, or in exhausting labour in advancing piety, or in authority and fulness of teaching, or in anything that is praiseworthy and renowned."- John Cheke on the death of Martin Bucer... "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes" - Erasmus
| 
05-10-2008, 09:33 AM
|  | Administrator | | Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hague, North Dakota
Posts: 2,726
Thanks: 840
Thanked 2,127 Times in 734 Posts
| |
Mark Garcia has now published his study of Calvin's duplex gratia soteriology. Pricey, but worth it.
| 
05-10-2008, 01:20 PM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mairinque, São Paulo, Brazil
Posts: 443
Thanks: 223
Thanked 110 Times in 66 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by ADKing For a healthy critique of this book, I encourage you to read Rev. Mark Garcia's review No Reformed Doctrine of Justification
Also, his recent lectures at the Thirteenth Annual Lynnwood Reformed Conference address many of these issues, and I think are valuable. Lynnwood Orthodox Presbyterian Church (under: audio-13th conference)
Not everyone in the anti-FV reformed camp is convinced the direction of this book is the best way to answer FV. | Thanks Rev. King for pointing this helpful review. It was an enlightning reading!
__________________
Carlos Eduardo de Oliveira
Member
Presbyterian Church in Aluminio
Mairinque, São Paulo, Brazil
| 
05-10-2008, 03:44 PM
|  | El Tirano | | Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 5,735
Thanks: 159
Thanked 1,864 Times in 1,056 Posts
| | Quote: |
Now, it needs to be mentioned that the problem here is not merely historical but the inevitable neglect of the theological benefit of Reformed theology on this point. Put most concisely, appreciating the biblical truth that sanctification does not result from justification, but is an aspect, like justification, of our union with Christ, alone safeguards the doctrine of justification against the Roman Catholic error. If we argue, with CJPM, that justification is the cause of sanctification, then we attribute to justification a generative, transformational quality (in that sanctification is generated or produced by justification) and thus, ironically in view of the driving concern in CJPM, compromise the purely forensic character of justification, its nature as a declarative act rather than the beginning of a work. This is the liability of the Lutheran model, but it is a liability that is entirely avoided in the Reformed model according to which justification and sanctification come to us as distinct, inseparable, simultaneous benefits of union with Christ, rather than one coming from the other (cf. WLC 69). CJPM urges a model which could have been pulled directly from the Formula of Concord. The Reformed model, however, best reflects the Apostle Paul’s own as it is expressed, for instance, in 1 Corinthians 1:30.
| That was indeed a very interesting review. Have any of the contributors to CJPM responded to it at all?
| 
05-10-2008, 05:24 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leduc, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,487
Thanks: 234
Thanked 821 Times in 435 Posts
| |
__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)
| 
05-10-2008, 05:26 PM
|  | El Tirano | | Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 5,735
Thanks: 159
Thanked 1,864 Times in 1,056 Posts
| | |
Thanks!
| 
05-10-2008, 05:28 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Poimen | Where does Mr Garcia teach?
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
05-10-2008, 05:30 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | Quote: |
Garcia says that the doctrine of the imputation of the active obedience of Christ is not found "even 'seminally' " in Calvin before the last edition of the Institutes 1559. Garcia is simply wrong. Surely the doctrine is present more than seminally in these words of Calvin in his 1539 Commentary on Romans: "When, however, we come to Christ, we first find in Him the exact righteousness of the law, and this also becomes ours by imputation."
| I found this part of Mr. Garcia's critique to be quiet disturbing.
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
05-10-2008, 06:08 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leduc, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,487
Thanks: 234
Thanked 821 Times in 435 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie Quote:
Originally Posted by Poimen | Where does Mr Garcia teach? | From the original article: Quote: |
Mark A. Garcia is the pastor of Immanuel Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Oakdale, Pennsylvania.
| Church site http://www.immanuelopcpgh.org/
__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)
| | The Following User Says Thank You to Poimen For This Useful Post: | | 
05-10-2008, 06:40 PM
|  | El Tirano | | Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 5,735
Thanks: 159
Thanked 1,864 Times in 1,056 Posts
| |
From the response to the review. Quote: |
In light of this we would appeal to Garcia to uphold this sense of priority of justification to sanctification in the ordo salutis. This is not a doctrine to be embraced in place of union with Christ, but our theology of union must be compatible with this doctrine. We ought not begin with an abstract doctrine of union, conceived independently of the concrete blessings of justification, adoption, and sanctification, and then deduce from this abstract doctrine the idea that justification, adoption, and sanctification must be received simultaneously through union without a defined relationship to each other. Union with Christ (or any other doctrine) should not become a central dogma from which we derive everything else. Garcia refers several times to 1 Corinthians 1:30 ("He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption"). Certainly this verse indicates that our justification and sanctification are received in union with Christ, which we gratefully acknowledge. But this verse should not be freighted with more weight than it can bear. Though Paul is not teaching any particular priority of justification to sanctification in this passage, he does teach such a priority elsewhere. Garcia also refers to WLC 69 in support of his position ("The communion in grace which the members of the invisible church have with Christ, is their partaking of the virtue of his mediation, in their justification, adoption, and sanctification, and whatever else, in this life, manifests their union with him"). This statement also rightly connects our justification and sanctification to our union with Christ. But clearly it does not teach that justification and sanctification bear no ordo relationship to each other. If anything, WLC 69 warns us against starting with an abstract doctrine of union from which we deduce the relationship (or lack thereof) between justification and sanctification. The WLC points us precisely to justification, adoption, and sanctification as those blessings that manifest our union. If we want to understand union, then, we must look to our justification, adoption, and sanctification. These blessings show us what our union with Christ is.
| It seems that the hinge of this controversy is union with Christ.
| 
05-10-2008, 07:02 PM
|  | Puritanboard Senior | | Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 2,382
Thanks: 369
Thanked 424 Times in 225 Posts
| | |
__________________
Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC
|  | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | |