Angels in the Architecture

Daniel Ritchie · #1 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 07:30 PM

Anyone read this book by Doug Wilson and Doug Jones? Came through the post yesterday. I am interested in such a topic because of post-modernisms' denial of objective standards of beauty, but fear it could lead to a popish view of art etc.

Gryphonette · #2 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 07:45 PM

I read it a few years ago and remembering liking it quite a lot.

Don't know what happened to my copy. Went looking for it recently but couldn't find it.

Daniel Ritchie · #3 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gryphonette

I read it a few years ago and remembering liking it quite a lot.

Don't know what happened to my copy. Went looking for it recently but couldn't find it.

What did you like about it Anne?

MICWARFIELD · #4 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 07:49 PM

Great book!

Daniel Ritchie · #5 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MICWARFIELD

Great book!

Why? Would someone please tell me why?

Ivanhoe · #6 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 08:54 PM

As you noted in your opening post, it is quite beautifully written. Some parts were simply stunning. Here is why: most Reformed theologues, bible students, and apologists are awesome at arguing for theology and Christianity in the abstract. Unfortunately, 95% of the world doesn't think in the abstract.

Jones and Wilson argue in the concrete--and do a real good job of it.

Daniel Ritchie · #7 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivanhoe

As you noted in your opening post, it is quite beautifully written. Some parts were simply stunning. Here is why: most Reformed theologues, bible students, and apologists are awesome at arguing for theology and Christianity in the abstract. Unfortunately, 95% of the world doesn't think in the abstract.

Jones and Wilson argue in the concrete--and do a real good job of it.

Could you expand on why most Reformed people argue in the abstract?

NaphtaliPress · #8 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 08:57 PM

Does it address the Reformed view of the second commandment or take issue with it? I'm looking for material on the topic.

Daniel Ritchie · #9 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Does it address the Reformed view of the second commandment or take issue with it? I'm looking for material on the topic.

Good question. I will keep my eyes peeled. It may interest you to know Chris, that I am reading RJ Rushdoony's Foundations of Social Order, I recall him saying that the Iconoclastic controversy in the East was started because the state did not like the idea of pictures of an incarnate deity, as it reminded the people that the state was not the incarnate deity. However, I am not sure if he was in favour of the icons or not. I will let you know if I see anything of use to you.

Ivanhoe · #10 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Does it address the Reformed view of the second commandment or take issue with it? I'm looking for material on the topic.

It doesn't address it.

Ivanhoe · #11 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivanhoe

As you noted in your opening post, it is quite beautifully written. Some parts were simply stunning. Here is why: most Reformed theologues, bible students, and apologists are awesome at arguing for theology and Christianity in the abstract. Unfortunately, 95% of the world doesn't think in the abstract.

Jones and Wilson argue in the concrete--and do a real good job of it.

Could you expand on why most Reformed people argue in the abstract?

That's more of a psychology question, to which I demur. BUt I have noticed that there is a plethora of Reformed essays, systematics texts, etc., but very few good Reformed novelists, poets or playwrights.

Reformed people love truth and will say they love beauty, but it is usually hard to see how. If someone can bring Van Til's insights down to the literary level, I honestly believe that Reformed folk can capture the hearts of a generation much faster than the latest systematics text.

Gryphonette · #12 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 09:57 PM

[apologetically] I should have kept my mouth shut - or fingers still - for I can't recall a single specific from it. All I remember is having enjoyed it very much, and don't recall any particular "the RC has this right!" aspect, which I'm fairly confidant would have had a negative impact on me if it'd been there.

I know several Reformed people who've read it and liked it a lot. I'm thinking of Wilson's books, this is among his best.

Zenas · #13 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivanhoe

Reformed people love truth and will say they love beauty, but it is usually hard to see how.

I find beauty in the 5 points of Dort, in the defense of Christianity, in the works of Rushdoony, Pink, and others.

Just what are you trying to say mister?

SueS · #14 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 10:53 PM

Sarah and I read it a few years ago when we were homeschooling and we both enjoyed it - it celebrated the enjoyment of ordinary things that make up our lives and emphasized that they are gifts from God as much as the "important" gifts. I loaned my copy to a elder in our former church and never got it back so I bought a new copy last year - haven't reread it yet.

Looking back, it's amazing how much Reformed material became part of our hsing program and we didn't even know what Reformed was!

Kevin · #15 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 09:03 AM

Jacob, are you forgetting that the best selling novelist in the world is a presbyterian?

etexas · #16 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivanhoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivanhoe

As you noted in your opening post, it is quite beautifully written. Some parts were simply stunning. Here is why: most Reformed theologues, bible students, and apologists are awesome at arguing for theology and Christianity in the abstract. Unfortunately, 95% of the world doesn't think in the abstract.

Jones and Wilson argue in the concrete--and do a real good job of it.

Could you expand on why most Reformed people argue in the abstract?

That's more of a psychology question, to which I demur. BUt I have noticed that there is a plethora of Reformed essays, systematics texts, etc., but very few good Reformed novelists, poets or playwrights.

Reformed people love truth and will say they love beauty, but it is usually hard to see how. If someone can bring Van Til's insights down to the literary level, I honestly believe that Reformed folk can capture the hearts of a generation much faster than the latest systematics text.

Great point Brother!

Ivanhoe · #17 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

Jacob, are you forgetting that the best selling novelist in the world is a presbyterian?

J.K. Rowling? Awesome.

py3ak · #18 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 11:41 AM

I read it a few years ago. This was I thought at the time, but I no longer have it so I can't check my impressions.

Quote:

This was a mixed bag. Some essays had good content and excellent style. Others made weird points badly. Some of them were just flat –perhaps trying too hard to work in "medievalism" in any way (e.g., the one about Beowulf). Highlights were, The Font of Laughter, Worshipping with Body, A Good Wife and A Welcoming Hearth and Poetic Knowledge. The poems in the back are repulsively bad –but there are interesting quotes (though the dependence on C.S. Lewis makes one wonder how much actual original study lies behind the book). It gives one an appreciation for Langland. I learned that free men in Alfred's reign were to be given 31 vacation days a year (that would include some sabbaths, so I don't know how many it would actually work out to). Saying the Creeds missed the boat on Sola Scriptura.

Daniel Ritchie · #19 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

I read it a few years ago. This was I thought at the time, but I no longer have it so I can't check my impressions.

Quote:

This was a mixed bag. Some essays had good content and excellent style. Others made weird points badly. Some of them were just flat –perhaps trying too hard to work in "medievalism" in any way (e.g., the one about Beowulf). Highlights were, The Font of Laughter, Worshipping with Body, A Good Wife and A Welcoming Hearth and Poetic Knowledge. The poems in the back are repulsively bad –but there are interesting quotes (though the dependence on C.S. Lewis makes one wonder how much actual original study lies behind the book). It gives one an appreciation for Langland. I learned that free men in Alfred's reign were to be given 31 vacation days a year (that would include some sabbaths, so I don't know how many it would actually work out to). Saying the Creeds missed the boat on Sola Scriptura.

Thanks Reuben, that is just what I was looking for. Would you say that there is a bit of "high-churchism" in the book and FV worship practices?

Ivanhoe · #20 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

I read it a few years ago. This was I thought at the time, but I no longer have it so I can't check my impressions.

Quote:

This was a mixed bag. Some essays had good content and excellent style. Others made weird points badly. Some of them were just flat –perhaps trying too hard to work in "medievalism" in any way (e.g., the one about Beowulf). Highlights were, The Font of Laughter, Worshipping with Body, A Good Wife and A Welcoming Hearth and Poetic Knowledge. The poems in the back are repulsively bad –but there are interesting quotes (though the dependence on C.S. Lewis makes one wonder how much actual original study lies behind the book). It gives one an appreciation for Langland. I learned that free men in Alfred's reign were to be given 31 vacation days a year (that would include some sabbaths, so I don't know how many it would actually work out to). Saying the Creeds missed the boat on Sola Scriptura.

Thanks Reuben, that is just what I was looking for. Would you say that there is a bit of "high-churchism" in the book and FV worship practices?

Not really, no.

py3ak · #21 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 12:20 PM

Daniel, I don't remember anything specifically directed to that. It wouldn't surprise me. But as far as FV worship practices go, I'm not sure how accurate of a name that is. Are there not paedocommunionists who are not FV? And I'm not at all sure how you would distinguish a Nevinite worship service from an FV one.

JBaldwin · #22 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivanhoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivanhoe

As you noted in your opening post, it is quite beautifully written. Some parts were simply stunning. Here is why: most Reformed theologues, bible students, and apologists are awesome at arguing for theology and Christianity in the abstract. Unfortunately, 95% of the world doesn't think in the abstract.

Jones and Wilson argue in the concrete--and do a real good job of it.

Could you expand on why most Reformed people argue in the abstract?

That's more of a psychology question, to which I demur. BUt I have noticed that there is a plethora of Reformed essays, systematics texts, etc., but very few good Reformed novelists, poets or playwrights.

Reformed people love truth and will say they love beauty, but it is usually hard to see how. If someone can bring Van Til's insights down to the literary level, I honestly believe that Reformed folk can capture the hearts of a generation much faster than the latest systematics text.

This is probably a topic for another thread, but it raises a question that I've had for a long time. Why are there so few artists, poets and musicians in many reformed churches? I don't see this in so much in PCA churches, but I do in all of the other more conservative reformed churches.

The comment above says something about "arguing in the abstract". By that, do you mean, we are all words and no images? I know this is a