I was talking with a friend who firmly states he is not a proponent of Federal Vision, but he has been reading some N.T. Wright in regard to other issues, and he brought up some interesting contentions that Wright posed, and I wanted to hear some responses. Keep in mind, I am hearing this second hand, but the ideas themselves were somewhat intriuging, ergo I'm opening them up here.

1. Apparently, Wright puts forth a claim (and I don't know if this is FV related or not) that we are not saved by faith alone, but by spiritual church membership.

Basically, our faith does not save us, though it is given of God, but rather, our membership in the bride of Christ saves us, i.e. God's election, and because of that, we have been granted faith in Christ etc.

2. In the Order of Salvation, adoption is the first thing that occurs, and it is not subsequent to justification. We are justified because we are adopted, not the other way around. Even more than that, we were adopted into Christ before the foundation of the world.

3. This is more of a question my friend posed and I have been thinking over; does God hate us, as the elect, before our conversion?

If this is in the wrong forum, please move it, but I would be interested in hearing responses. On the whole, I can't say that the man is "wrong". I know that he's characterized as brilliant, but that mere fact alone shouldn't give his ideas unquestionable credence, but rather, they should be examined all the more.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

AS to #1, your friend is wrong.

JSO

__________________
John
Evangelical Free Church, no offices held
Langhorne, PA

[B]δός δοξαν τῳ θεῳ.[/B]
[B]ιδου ποιω τα εσχατα ως τα πρωτα.
הבל הבלים[/B]

Can you clarify what he should have meant then?

Appears to be a matter of semantics.

Looking at Eph 2:8 I would suggest that we are saved BY Jesus Christ BECAUSE of the grace of God THROUGH the vehicle of faith.

It sounds like if we are saved by being a member of the Bride of Christ then at the moment of becoming a member we are not saved, because it is only in being a member that we can be saved.

How would the holy nature of God be able to adopt those who are not counted just?

No.
I would think that God hates the reprobate, but God doesn't hate His children. There is no time-frame in God's mind, He knows everything always, so i would think that He would hate and love based on the eternality of a person's state.

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
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