Something from the Aquila Report

Siouxlands Presbytery Sustains Complaints, Answers Overture

for those who've been following the Siouxlands Presbytery case

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

He also affirmed that he believes that no reprobate person ever gets justification, and that he believes that the baptized reprobate do get forgiveness of sin in some real sense.
A motion was made to the effect that the testimony be deemed sufficient to fulfill the requirements of BCO 31-2, and that no strong presumption of guilt should be found.

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TE Brian Carpenter
Pastor, Foothills PCA Sturgis, SD
www.thehappytr.blogspot.com www.afiresidechat.blogspot.com
"In vain th' unlighted pipe you blow;
Your pains in inward means are so,
'Till heav'nly fire thy heart inspire.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco."

Glad to see you're posting here, Pastor. Great work so far!

I am confused. Are these men affirming a form of baptismal regeneration?

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David
PCA
Richardson, Texas

Saving faith is an immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, resting upon Him alone, for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of God's grace.
--C.H. Spurgeon

DD2009,

Yuh-huh.

TE Lawrence? I didn't know they were on to me!

Seriously though, I'm glad to see this.

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We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Lawrence Underwood, Jr.
Pastor - Providence Family Fellowship / Mobile, Alabama
1644/46 LBC
My Blog - Imprimis

Might someone who considers this a positive thing explain it?

It's difficult to see how it can be spun as a good thing.

As I understand, they appointed a committee.

They rejected the conclusions of the committee.

Complaints were filed.

They took steps to make sure that the complaint wouldn't go beyond presbytery, appointed a new committee to cover the ground already covered, and endorsed theology which appears to be out of accord with the standards.

Have I misread the story? Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding of what has happened?

Correction of my understanding would certainly give me a comfort that I don't have at this point.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

Now Edward's confusion has me confused

Isn't this saying that the Presbyters decided their endorsement of this quasi- baptismal regeneration was wrong, and so they'll have another hearing in Jan, and maybe decide then that this isn't OK?

We should all pray. There have been a few times in my current PCA church, where some idealistic young sweet guy has made a comment in casual conversation about trusting the polity of the PCA and the safeguards of our system and so forth, in a way that seems to be putting their trust in the system and the structure. Now my pastor who is older and wiser has commented on occasion that an entire presbytery can go off, so maybe it takes time for the idealism to die in these fresh out of seminary guys. I want to get a little flag and write " Machen, PCUSA, GA" on it and wave it in front of them but I've managed to keep my mouth shut, but we should all be really praying for the PCA. That last vote at GA related to deaconesses went the right way IMO, but there were so many votes from the minority that it was seriously scary. I'd hate to see a repeat of Machen's days in ten years or less.

Tim, thanks for the update.

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Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

In the words of Ian Paisley of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster...



EKKKKKKKKKKKKKLESIAAAAAASTICAL RELIGGGGGIOUS DARKNESS!

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Lee Johnston
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Paisley, Scotland
Ephesians 1:4-5
"In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

Looking at the process so far, PCA presbyterian polity, it is working exactly as it is supposed to.

Because there is recent case precedent on this (Louisiana Presbytery), there will be quick action by the Presbytery now, and lots of people willing to assist them if they need help discerning the theological issues (probably even from Louisiana Presbytery, also).

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Didn't the rejection of the committee report come after the Louisiana situation was resolved? And if the Presbytery wants to do the right thing, why the new committee?

I wish I could be as charitable as many in evaluating what is going on, but unfortunately, experience colors my view.

Edward,

I'm not sure we have complete information as to the machinations of process presently occurring in this Presbytery.

In Louisiana, a three man committee was formed to investigate a teaching elder promoting "federal vision" and it ruled 2-1 that the teaching was not serious error. Then, rather slowly as I recall, the majority there finally accepted the committee report by a narrow margin.

Then, that presbytery decision was appealed to SJC which ordered compliance by the presbytery with the PCA constitution (which is what the SJC is there to uphold, the PCA Constitution- Westminster Standards and Book of Church Order).

It was said by the majority there that there was some confusion as to what exactly the SJC had required them to do, but in the end, they went through the process and found no serious error by a narrow majority.

Later, a complaint to SJC resulted in a preliminary finding that the presbytery failed to protect the church from harm, trial was set... the Presbytery majority recanted, the main perpetrator left the denomination the night before he would have been served process to stand trial (the trial he had demanded for a long time before). He fled to the Confederated Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) which received him. That Communion's most visible leader is a Mr. Doug Wilson.

Not the same situation here at all.

The Presbytery, up front knows they are going to be scrutinized and, based on their actions, knows they made a mistake. There are guidelines to help them discern, and people experienced in the issues. They have a quick report back.

Despite "federal vision" promoters saying for years and years no one understands their issues- the study committees and many prominent teachers have made their complexity understandable.

At best they confuse the gospel. At worst, they deny it.

Neither is acceptable for one who would presume to teach God's people.

This Presbytery has many fine biblical, reformed brothers, including Reverend Lane Keister- and they know all this.

Would this qualify as an equivocation of the term justification? As in future justification ala NT Wright et al? In that case, of course they don't "get" it, as they don't keep on keepin on...

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Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

Is this the face of FV?

As usual, the whole FV chaos is givin' me flashbacks....

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Brad
Member- Eagle Heights PCA
Winchester, VA

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

But I don't understand why they will 'get it now' and they didn't 'get it' when the SJC acted before, or when the committee erected pursuant to the SJC action issued the report that was rejected.

It isn't like they haven't already had two chances to address the problem.

Background here:

Presbytery of the Siouxlands Exonerates Member Suspected of Federal Vision Teaching, Complaint to SJC Contemplated

Siouxlands Schizophrenia God’s Hammer

boule...that was interesting as a fuller investigation, but talk about bad attitude. It seems dripping with contempt instead of anguish and grief that these things happen, and the humility that only by grace are we all not FV.

Also, the PCA committee report against the FV got a favorable vote by an overwhelming majority. Don't get me wrong, I do see things to make me worry about the future of the PCA apart from God keeping us on the narrow path. But this blogger, whoever he is, has one nasty critical attitude. It is nowhere as bad as he is trying to make it out to be.

Lynnie,

I don't necessarily agree with every jot and tittle of S.G.'s post, and he does have a history of bomb throwing.

It is a fine line between grief and anger sometimes, and I've crossed it myself more than once.

Setting the issue of his invective aside, he does seem to have something of a handle on the issues.

I suppose he could have changed lunatic to ignoramus to be charitable. But you'd have to be really, really ignorant to say

My 7-11 Year olds in my SS class wouldn't say that. They would say that is silly. So what should we call that, and how should we react to a Presbytery that thinks such statements are cute?

If I hadn't seen first hand arminians and baptists being ordained in the NorCal Presbytery, or a confessional elder in a session with a quorum being humiliated by an elder of a neighboring church who was invited to slander the confessional elder at a church meeting and nobody doing anything about it I wouldn't have believed it possible in the PCA.

But elder Moon is far too typical of the PCA and I'm glad Dr. Aquila, who is as brilliant as he is wise, has shed light on the underbelly of the PCA. Outrage is healthy in a case like this. These people need targets painted on them.

Only one thing to consider in the spirit of Christian charity and truth between us, the source here has been banned from Greenbaggins site for violations of such.

Charitably, the subcommittee came to another result, and this is being reviewed, and we know there are many faithful men of God involved here as the process proceeds.

If I hadn't seen first hand arminians and baptists being ordained in the NorCal Presbytery, or a confessional elder in a session with a quorum being humiliated by an elder of a neighboring church who was invited to slander the confessional elder at a church meeting and nobody doing anything about it I wouldn't have believed it possible in the PCA.

Q. 129. What is required of superiors towards their inferiors?
A. It is required of superiors, according to that power they receive from God, and that relation wherein they stand, to love, pray for, and bless their inferiors; to instruct, counsel, and admonish them; countenancing, commending, and rewarding such as do well; and discountenancing, reproving, and chastising such as do ill; protecting, and providing for them all things necessary for soul and body: and by grave, wise, holy, and exemplary carriage, to procure glory to God, honor to themselves, and so to preserve that authority which God hath put upon them.

Clearly those actions are abuses of power and violations of the Fifth Commandment. But just as clearly, assuming the issue of possessing standing is not the problem, letting those abusive acts stand when there are proceudres in place to remedy them is also a violation of the Fifth Commandment.

Did you or anyone else complain against the offending actions of the presbytery? Did you or anybody else file charges for the slander? Was there even a solemn protest?

I'm not singling you out or trying to pick on you. I want to use this as an opportunity to make us all think. You may even have lacked standing to do anything. But I'm willing to bet that you are not the only one who saw these things and didn't like them, and that at least one of those people had standing. Confessionalists in Presbyterian churches have done no end of kvetching. What they have not done is learn how to use the mechanisms available and then gird up their loins to use them. To the extent we ordained leaders do not use those mechanisms out of laziness or cowardice, we violate our ordination vows. I don't know what the vows were in other denominations, but in the PCA one of them reads:

Do you promise to be zealous and faithful in maintaining the truths of the Gospel and the purity and peace and unity of the Church, whatever persecution or opposition may arise unto you on that account?

http://thehappytr.blogspot.com/2009/...terianism.html

By all means single me out since it's a subject I harp on all the time! Yes, when I was a member I filed charges with the ordaining baptists and arminians and with the help of some people on this board and I won. I'd left the PCA when the elder slamming happened, and tried to get a couple members to do something after they complained about it, but none would. The illegal (or so I assume) church purpose statement is linked to below, and I've posted it often, but to my knowledge no one does anything about it. Since there are only 3 churches that seem to care about the BCO I understand, though, since the elders there are overloaded with activities related to reforming that particular presbytery. It's the "pew potatoes" that disappoint me.

Trinity Presbyterian Church

Now I'm in an OPC where they actually do radical things like take minutes of session meetings, have people with grey hair on the session, etc..and it's refreshing.

Tim,

I didn't know your history other than what I read in your profile. Good job.

Very few people seem to realize that being outnumbered by one's ideological opponents makes not one whit of difference where this process is concerned. Anyone with the intelligence to understand and the intestinal fortitude to pursue may make use of the process to great effect.

One should not be ignorant of the cost, though, or one will falter on the way. It will most likely make everyone mad at you and some will hate you (in Christian love, of course.)

Dr. Clark has a post on this on his blog this morning.

Something Weird in the Siouxlands Heidelblog

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Mike
PCA
Edmond, OK

"Tomorrow may be our dying day; let this be our repenting day."

-Thomas Watson

The cost is exorbitant, and intentionally so by my estimation. Enough to bring many a faithful member to sore vexation and exhaustion. Whatever the motivation, the PCA appears often to be as professionally protectionist as the legal trade, albeit with far less intestinal fortitude and accountability than that fair guild, much to the detriment of the sheep within her fold.

Brad,

I can't judge the intentionality of it. My guess is that many men react negatively because they harbor secret fears of their own theological incompetence. Rather than make an honest effort to admit and address their weaknesses (and we all have them) they determine at some subconscious level just to resist and drag everyone else down to a level they feel comfortable with. That's just a guess, of course. But it's not a wild, unfounded guess.

It doesn't matter, ultimately. Men were burned alive to pass these truths on to us whole and entire. We dishonor their sacrifice if we fail to preserve them because somebody won't like us if we endeavor to fight for them. If the footmen have wearied us, how will we ever run with the horses when it's time?