This may have been posted before, but even if it has it will do no harm to put it up again. Anyway, here is a link to a debate on the Federal Vision:

John Otis - Steve Schlissel Debate on the Federal Vision

This is highly valuable, because in listening to Steve Schlissel you get what Federal Visionists believe (or at least some of them) straight from the horses' mouth. It pains me to say it but Rev. Schlissel is proclaiming another gospel - if you don't believe me listen to the debate. Moreover, he constantly misrepresents Reformed theology and then does not allow John Otis to correct him. Indeed, he even tried to stop John from quoting from Romans and Galatians in order to prove the Protestant view of justification...I wonder why/

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Thank you for posting this Daniel.

It's interesting to listen to Steve again; he seemed to have dropped off the FV radar for the last few years.

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA

"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)

Thanks for the link Daniel, I look forward to listening to this. I realize this might be an odd question, but who is Steve Schlissel? I have not heard of him.

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Josiah Lovett
Member of
Trinity OPC
Bothell WA
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Westminster Standards

Seriously?

In light of the FV controversy, Steve was one of the original speakers at the Auburn Avenue Pastor's conference (2002) that started this whole mess.

He also wrote two chapters in "The Auburn Avenue Theology: Pros & Cons".

His website is: Rev. Steve M. Schlissel

I thought Schlissel had been distancing himself from FV lately? Of course, that was a vague impression not anything definite.

__________________
Ruben
Moderator
F.P.C.I.
Indiana

Vanities and disguises have covered us, and thereby we are naked; licenciousness hath inflam'd us, and thereby we are frozen; voluptuousness hath fed us, and thereby we are sterved, the fancies and traditions of men have taught and instructed us, and thereby we are ignorant.
John Donne

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Calvinistas Conversando
Teología en Mexico
The Howling Wilderness

It would certainly make sense judging by his current silence on the issue. But what led you to believe this was the case?

At the AAPC conference, Schissel was way out there! He was, and I assume he still is, one of the biggest advocates of NT Wright. He had bought into Wright's NPP hook, line and sinker.

__________________
~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

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I had heard of him, but never made the connection the FV

It was the paedocommunion issue, I believe. That and some rumors of tensions made me think that Schlissel might be following his own path.

The paedocommunion issue makes sense.

If paedocommunion is of the esse of FV, that would rule him out. If it's only of the bene esse then the umbrella might cover him.

I think that paedocommunion is consistent with FV and therefore Mr. Schlissel is very inconsistent with his theology.

I would therefore still put him under the FV banner.

If he has moved away, that would be excellent. He was such a gifted speaker, so it is with great sadness that I listened to his comments.

No what I meant was that he was not being mentioned by FV supporters and has not been speaking at their conferences.

But since I see no repentance on his part for this fiasco. He still links to his original lectures. Messiah's Media

That is a shame. May God have mercy on his soul.

This debate took place just this past Summer. So if Schlissel has moved away from the FV it must be a recent developement.

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James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

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That is interesting to know, because Steve Schlissel's comments in that debate prove that FVers have not been misunderstood.

He got bogged down in some unrelated inner-church adjudications (or some word like that). Yes, he did back off the issue but not for theological reasons, as I recall. He had other things to do.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

He is an awesome speaker. I have been stunned and overwhelmed by his messages in the past. I haven't listened to him in a while, though.

Schlissel isn't speaking at this years conference according to this site. I don't think he's distanced himself from FV, but FVers have distanced themselves from him. He's even farther out than Lusk, which takes some effort.

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Bob Mattes
Ruling Elder, Christ Church of Arlington (PCA), Arlington, VA
Reformed Musings Blog

"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke
"We old folks have to find our cushions and pillows in our tankards. Strong beer is the milk of the old." -Martin Luther

Mercy Maud, the man revealed himself to be a theological loon during the DeRegnoChristi debate. If he's still within the FV pale, but Schlissel isn't, the latter must be truly strange.

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Anne Ivy
Christ Chapel Bible Church
Fort Worth, Texas

Widowed mother of six, grandmother of eight.

The Ivy Vine (my blog)

That is worrying; I am reading John Otis' book at present, and he documents Lusks' heresies - which are a clear denial of justification by faith alone - perhaps Steve Schlissel is a more honest man than the rest of them.

I just listened to the MP3. While I am opposed to FV and have went on record saying I believe it is outside of the boundaries of the Westminster Confession and should therefore not be tolerated within Presbyterian churches, I have been very slow to apply the 'H' word.

Listening to this partial debate...to hear Schlissel go head to head with Otis (if only briefly) when Otis is presenting justification by faith alone...I'm not sure if all the FVers are where Schlissel is, but what he is arguing against is the gospel, and what he is affirming is heresy. His comments were clear and set in the context over and against what Otis had presented (the gospel).

It was clear that these men have two different gospels (as there were clearly two different views of justification presented). For Schlissel to be asked at the end if he saw Otis's camp as claiming to be a different gospel and answer, "No...Jesus himself is the gospel, as long as they are representing the proper Christ, then they have access to the proper gospel" is just asinine. Paul wrote to the Galatians, 'Christ will be of no advantage to you', if they pursued their false view of justification. The issue at hand was not the person of Jesus, but the gospel as it relates to justification. There is no hint at all that the Galatian heresy had anything to do with the nature of Christ. Simply believing in the proper view of the Trinity is not enough. Schlissel's comment would include Roman Catholicism as also being a true witness of the gospel.

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Robert Truelove
Pastor
Christ Reformed Church
Lawrenceville, GA

Well said brother, even if there are people in the FV movement who disagree with Steve Schlissel, Norman Shepherd and Rich Lusk on justification, then they should clearly distance themselves from these men. However, there continued unwillingness to do this makes me suspicious. Mr. Schlissel is NOT proclaiming the gospel in this debate, the logic of his position would have us believe that anyone who acknowledges Jesus as Messiah, and lives a life of "Covenantal faithfulness" is a Christian - this is damnable heresy (Gal. 1:6-9). And no amount of filibustering or double-talk can get round it.

Thanks, Daniel for the link to the debate. I am anxious to listen to it. Steve Schlissel is all over the board. I am not sure he knows what he believes. Schlissel still is a hyper-covenantalist like Lusk and the others. He has not changed his stripes. I believe he is not connected to a denomination or even Presbyterian. He has an independent congregation in New York. Unfortunetly, he is connected with Chalcedon and was involved with R. J. Rushdooney, before his glorification. I wonder what Rushdooney would think if he was still here on earth? Where does Mark Rushdooney fit into all this?

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

Chalcedon, as far as I am aware, rejects the Federal Vision as Joe Morecraft was speaking at the recent Chalcedon Conference - if it had any links with the FV Joe M would not be there.

For anyone wanting to know what R.J. Rushdoony would have thought of the Federal Vision, read his commentary on Romans & Galatians.

Just as he opposed the heresy of societal salvation by Statist "grace" (i.e. law), so he opposed the heresy of personal salvation on account of good works.

I have an appendix in the back of my forthcoming book A Conquered Kingdom: Biblical Civil Government , which distances Christian Reconstruction from the Federal Vision, and I quote from Rush (among others) to prove my point.

Who is the publisher of your forthcoming book? The title sounds like something I may be interested in reading. I used to subscribe to Chalcedon and appreciated much of Rushdoony's work, although I certainly would not agree with him in some areas. I have read some of Joe Morecraft's material and agree that he rejects this FV nonsense.

Stephen

I am self-publishing it and will keep you posted. Like yourself, I would not agree with Rush on everything, but appreciated his work. Interestingly, it was John Otis who insisted that I write an FV-disclaimer (John has written a foreword, as has PB member Doug Comin).

Here is a link to a sermon which introduces my book: SermonAudio.com - Theonomic Reconstruction

Well I just went for a bicycle ride and listened to the Schlissel-Otis debate, and was gobsmacked with what I heard!

Schlissel kept saying that the standard Protestant position is that faith = bare mental assent. I'm amazed that he hasn't even grasped the the rudiments of the reformation: faith = trust.

And then he asks Otis where Justification by Faith Alone is taught outside Galatians and Romans: what about Phil. 3:8-9, 2 Cor. 5:21; Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:16; Luke 18:9ff. ... and the list could keep going on and on.

The FV debate is complicated by the fact that not all in the camp would agree with Schlissel on the above, Doug Wilson being one.

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Marty
Ordained Presbyter; Currently Lecturer in Theology
Anglican Church of Australia
(Now finally back! in) Perth, Australia.
"There is nothing so necessary to draw us to repentance as good thoughts of God." (Thomas Manton)

Yes, what really annoyed me about what Steve Schlissel was saying (apart from the fact that he was teaching heresy) was that he kept misrepresenting the Protestant and Reformed view, then when John Otis tried to correct him, he would not listen.

Yes, one other thing that got me was that Schlissel doesn't seem to be aware that the word "justification" has a variety of meanings in the NT. Hence, when we read of the young man trying to "justify" himself in Luke 10 (to which Schlissel referred) and the use of "justification" in James 2:24 we're dealing with words that have a different meaning to those which Paul uses in Galatians, Romans, and Titus 3.

These are basic issues that one can't miss if they've read Calvin's exposition of justification in Institutes book 3 let alone any of the Protestant orthodox systems.

Fascinating, isn't it, that Luther and Calvin had to take great pains to explain that to the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.

This stretches credulity to think that Schlissel is unaware of this. If he embraced it at one point it is very telling that he would retreat to such a disingenuous stance knowing full well what the answer to such facile exegesis would be.

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Rich
PCA, Northern VA
Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary

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In that sense there is nothing new about the NPP. In reality, it's the OPP held by the RCC.

I'm not sure how many of you will get this musical connection from the early 90's:
"You down with OPP?"
"Yea, R-C-C"

__________________
Andrew Moody
Pastor - Christ Covenant OPC - Amarillo, TX
Director - Amarillo Theological Institute
Owner - Reformation Art
Amarillo Reformed Fellowship

Well said, what Steve Schlissel was teaching in that debate was, in essence, Romanism. In fact, am I not right in saying that his is ecumenical and has had Papists and Eastern Orthodox priests speak at his church?

Ha, I get it... good stuff.

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[B]Scott James[/B]
South / Central Florida
Still looking for a home Church...

"Let a thing here be noted, that the prophet of God sometimes may teach treason against kings, and yet neither he nor such as obey the word, spoken in the Lord’s name by him, offend God." -John Knox

While I agree with you on the above, others are well on their way (or if not they are being inconsistent). The FV system reduces everything to 'covenant' which includes either a sloppy definition of the term or one, imo, that includes at least the seed of some of these ideas of Schlissel without having the courage to blossom forth the fruit.

One thing I noticed in the deabte, which would perhaps separate Steve Schlissel from Romanism, is that he does not believe the Protestant view of justificaton is - to quote the Council of Trent - "anathema" or a damnable heresy.

However I can't say that inspires much confidence.