Thread: John Piper and Doug Wilson...

I've been busy lately and out of the loop so I just learned about John Piper having Doug Wilson speak at an upcoming conference and Piper's assessment of Federal Vision (and his flip flop on NT Wright and The News Perspectives)...

John Piper's explanation of what the Federal Vision guys are actually saying is absolutely asinine. His comments make it crystal clear that the Federal Vision double talk has pulled the wool over his eyes.

So, Mark Driscoll last year, and a Federal Vision ring leader this year.

It saddens me to say that I will no longer be recommending his resources.

This was also discussed here: John Piper explains his reason for inviting Doug Wilson to the DG conference

Originally Posted by Robert Truelove

John Piper's repeated lack of discernment has demonstrated to me that he is not theologically grounded and unstable as a spiritual leader. It saddens me to say that I will no longer be recommending his resources.

I posted this one month ago:
"Piper has been slipping for years. He has been weak, at best, on the continuation of charismatic gifts for at least ten years. With such a fractured epistemological base it should not be surprising that the slide continues."

I disagree with many things in the old books that I read. That has never stopped me from encouraging others to read those same books.

So I find it hard to understand the point of ignoring the good things someone has written, because I disagree with their latest book.

So why chuck over board John Piper, just because he agrees with our own Greenbaggins and the Bayly Bros about Pastor Wilsons (more or less) orthodoxy?

Kevin,

There is error and there is error.

As a pastor who is charged to "shepherd the flock of God", I must exercise discernment with regards to the men I introduce to God's people or promote through their works as there is all too often the tendency for people to become enamored with a particular speaker or teacher and become influenced by everything that is said. I have experienced the devastating effects that the endorsement of the good works of men who also promote serious doctrinal error can have in the church. I have learned this lesson the hard way and will not repeat the same mistakes.

John Piper may not be directly endorsing Federal Vision, but by promoting one of its chief proponents and going so far as to defend Federal Vision teaching as nothing different in substance than the things he disagrees with in historic Presbyterian theology; well, for me, its just over the line. That's not the kind of influence I wish to promote before God's people.

Furthermore, I have always had my differences with Piper but never so much that I believed the man to be a danger to the church through his influence. That has now changed. Piper has communicated such instability over the last few years that his own trajectory is uncertain. What is he going to do or who is he going to promote next?

Regarding the difference between modern authors and teachers and the "old books". I'll allow C.S. Lewis to answer...

"This mistaken preference for the modern books and this shyness of the old ones is nowhere more rampant than in theology. Wherever you find a little study circle of Christian laity you can be almost certain that they are studying not St. Luke or St. Paul or St. Augustine or Thomas Aquinas or Hooker or Butler, but M. Berdyaev or M. Maritain or M. Niebuhr or Miss Sayers or even myself.

Now this seems to me topsy-turvy. Naturally, since I myself am a writer, I do not wish the ordinary reader to read no modern books. But if he must read only the new or only the old, I would advise him to read the old. And I would give him this advice precisely because he is an amateur and therefore much less protected than the expert against the dangers of an exclusive contemporary diet. A new book is still on its trial and the amateur is not in a position to judge it. It has to be tested against the great body of Christian thought down the ages, and all its hidden implications (often unsuspected by the author himself) have to be brought to light."
– C. S. Lewis (from his Introduction to Athanasius on the Incarnation)

Originally Posted by Kevin

I disagree with many things in the old books that I read. That has never stopped me from encouraging others to read those same books.

So I find it hard to understand the point of ignoring the good things someone has written, because I disagree with their latest book.

So why chuck over board John Piper, just because he agrees with our own Greenbaggins and the Bayly Bros about Pastor Wilsons (more or less) orthodoxy?

No, we don't discount John Piper because of a couple associations amongst a sea of very good ones.

We do, however, pray for his discernment and contact him privately with heartfelt concern born of admiration and love for what God is doing through him.

Scott,

I assume then that you have contacted Pastor Piper and shared your concern over these events? Am curious to learn what you said or wrote to him?

I have contacted Desiring God Ministries and implored Piper to read, not a critique of Federal Vision, but "The Federal Vision" (edited by Steve Wilkins and published by Athanasius Press). I wrote him that I was confident that after reading their own writings in this book he would think differently of the matter.

At present I graciously assume he is ignorant of the true facts of the case. Ignorance however doesn't change the fact that he is influencing tens of thousands of believers. And yes, I am praying for him.

Whether Piper is truly knowledgeable of the Federal Vision or ignorant, the fact is he is now promoting it by downplaying the seriousness of the deviation (equating it to essentially the same thing as the way Baptists view infant baptism as a deviation).

You may see that as a minor thing. I do not.

Originally Posted by Scott1

No, we don't discount John Piper because of a couple associations amongst a sea of very good ones.

We do, however, pray for his discernment and contact him privately with heartfelt concern born of admiration and love for what God is doing through him.

Robert,

Yes I have contacted Mr. Piper with both thanks for what God is doing through him and concern about federal vision theology.

One of the things I shared was the link to the PCA study paper on Federal Vision (which mentions Mr. Wilson, as among other things, co-author of the book, The Federal Vision.)

I have not heard anything back and would ask for permission to share here if there is a personalized response.

You are correct, this is not a minor thing. Leaders, especially very visible and influential ones are held to an even higher standard. This is a real disappointment, even a shock to some of us who do not want this dear brother to go off on the "federal vision" faction or be blind to its errors.

It's good you contacted Mr. Piper as well. Let's use any other opportunities God gives to engage him in this, and trust God for good results!

Blessings.

Pastor Truelove, I disagree.

The people of God are best served (IMHO) by pastors that introduce them to men that Love the Gospel & the Saviour, AND point out the fact that NO MAN is perfect.

(Is it better that people learn of someone online?)

I'm not a FV expert, but I know about getting paperwork overload. I can probably "bet the house" that John Piper's mailbox is overflowing right now. The amount of time for him to examine and to respond to these letters is huge. He may opt to filter or randomly select letters, so do not be surprised if a blanket statement is made and not every letter replied to.

I posted an article about Piper's invitation of Wilson back on June 26:

Reformed Baptist Blog: Disappointed in John Piper's Judgment About Doug Wilson

As the title says, I was a bit disappointed in John over this issue.

I am disappointed over Piper's comments as well. But it's interesting that you quote C.S. Lewis in your defense of your decision not to recommend Piper anymore. I love Lewis, but I can think of a number of things he wrote that would likely cause you to avoid recommending him were he a preacher today in Piper's position. My - both C.S. Lewis and Piper have too much good stuff to offer that gives reason enough why they should sometimes be recommended reading - even with disagreements.

I love Piper's preaching. I think he is one of the greatest living preachers today. He has probably done as much to turn the younger generation to the great truths of Calvinism as any living man.

Even Peter was "bewitched" temporarily in Galatia, so much so that Barnabas too was drawn into error. God raised up Paul to deal with it, and he can raise up what it takes for Piper if necessary. I am not aware that Piper has gone into any error himself regarding justification, in fact, his sermon "this man went down to his house justifed" is one of the finest anti- FV sermons ever.

You would not lend out his marvelous biographies? You can't tell people that this particular item is great but you don't recommend everything? You would not loan out Stott's Cross of Christ because Stott is off elsewhere? You would not read BB Warfield because he is an evolutionist?

I think maturity and discernment go together, and most people can benefit from imperfect teachers. All you need to do is speak a word of caution, not ban them entirely.

Hopefully, I did not go overboard in my own assertions in the aforementioned article. I certainly tried to be loving and fair.

So why chuck over board John Piper, just because he agrees with our own Greenbaggins and the Bayly Bros about Pastor Wilsons (more or less) orthodoxy?

Pastor Keister said

That is why, if Wilson were to apply for admission into the Presbytery of which I am a part, I could not vote to approve his transfer of credentials.

My whole county is being ripped apart by one of Wilson's disciples.

This saddens me greatly. Not about Piper but everybody on here critizing him. I have been watching some discussions lately and this probably takes the cake. I love the Westminster Standards and Confession and adhere to them as closely as possible. However I feel on here that some of the discussions are quite detrimental to my growing as a Christian. Yes we are reformed and we adhere to the tenets. But instead of tearing others' doctrine up and being terribly phariseeical about it we should be trying to reach out and build up.. I have learned a ton on here. But I have also seen a bunch of things that I don't agree with and sadly am in no position to even try to speak against. It seems some should get out of the ivory towers and start living in 3D. We have a hurting world out there that needs Jesus.

Phillipines are experiencing almost Katrina like storms and have asked for international assistance.

Indonesia is reeling from an earthquake with over 700 dead.

The Pacific Islands are getting smashed by a tsunami.

And in Conakry, Guinea, Monday, 50,000 people gathered for a pro-democracy rally and over 150 were mowed down by soldiers.

This is just a snippet of what has happened this week. And we are nitpicking on DOCTRINE. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. Ashamed for being so prideful for trying to be right, ashamed for a lack of love for what's happening in the world, and ashamed for being a bad example to a young reformed believer.

I love the puritans and enjoy immensely what I learn from them. But we can't live a 17th century theology in a postmodern 21st century world..

What are we doing to show and display Christ, all?

As I know this post WILL be read by an admin please delete my account. I can't continue to be a member here anymore.

Nick, I know how you feel, but try to remember that good theology and living out the gospel ultimately should go together, not be placed in opposition to one another. I know that wasn't your point, but I thought I should point that out. Doctrine is pretty important because it does affect how we live out the gospel. I understand your impressions more than you know, but haven't most people on this thread defended Piper's materials, even while disagreeing with this one opinion of his? Anyway, blessings, brother, since you are leaving.

Originally Posted by Radical_Pilgrim

This is just a snippet of what has happened this week. And we are nitpicking on DOCTRINE. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Blessings as you go Brother but it saddens me that you think that a concern about doctrine is a secondary issue. As one who has labored with great difficulty in Churches loving the Body of Christ enough to stand for the nature of the Gospel, it is more clarity that many Christians need.

While I agree that pride gets in our way of being helpful in our critique of error, the Scriptures are very plain that we are charged with following and teaching the pattern of sound doctrine that has been delivered to the Saints.

I would also just finally add that John Piper himself continually labors concerning doctrine. I believe he would be appalled if someone told him (for example) not to criticize NT Wright because there are disasters in the world.