I in no way intend to dismiss or discount how justification is being twisted and warped these days, but ISTM the twisting and warping actually begins at a more basic doctrine, i.e. "salvation."

For all its faults - and they are legion - the RCC doesn't define "salvation" differently than does traditional Reformed thought. Put rather inelegantly, salvation effectively means if someone dies, that someone will eventually wind up in glory.

The "eventually" is necessary due to the RCC's imaginative doctrine of purgatory, of course. But back when I was RC, it was understood that while purgatory's not any fun, it's still a positive thing to find oneself there, as it means one will someday go on to glory.

Point being, "salvation" is intrinsically tied to "glorification" in both the RCC system and the traditional Reformed system.

Since the Reformers and the RCC had no real disagreement on what it means to be saved, the focus naturally was on the area in which they did disagree, i.e. how one is saved, and whether one's salvation can be lost.

But the FV and the NPP are hand-in-hand in their redefinition of "salvation", splitting it into current, temporal salvation and final, eternal salvation, with someone able to be saved in the former sense at the same time not being saved in the latter sense, thus severing the tie between salvation and glorification. This way of looking at "What does it mean to be saved?" is different from both the traditional Reformed and RCC systems.

I'm thinking it's counterproductive to continue to argue with the adherents of the FV and/or the NPP about justification, since the basic soteriological disagreement lies further back in what salvation actually is. If people cannot agree on what salvation is, there's no way they're going to agree on justification.

A lot of the people in the pews have never thought deeply on justification, considering it to be one of those $64 words that theologians like to talk about, but the PiP's do have definite fixed beliefs about salvation. They're likely to either tune out when they hear or read "justification" or, because they're not rock solid on what it is, they're unable to distinguish the errors being taught about it when they come across 'em.

They're clear on what "salvation" is, however. If they could be shown the errors being taught about that, it would provide a hedge of protection against the rest of the heterodoxy being promoted by those who should know better.

I'm thinking it's a mistake to not concentrate harder on how the FV and NPP have been changing the definition of what it means to be saved.

OTOH, I could be all wet.

Thoughts?

__________________
Anne Ivy
Christ Chapel Bible Church
Fort Worth, Texas

Married to Don, mother of six, grandmother to an ever-increasing brood.

The Ivy Vine (my blog)

Would agree that salvation is at the heart of it. But I'm not quite following you regarding salvation and glorification:

Maybe you could unpack this a bit more.

__________________
~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder - Inactive
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

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I like what Herman Bavinck says about grace restoring nature. Salvation restores the man under God. Jan Veenhof wrote a fine monograph Nature and Grace in Herman Bavinck's Thought.

Rushdoony's work on salvation is similar, Salvation and Godly Rule. He notes how in many langauges the words for salvation and "health" are quite similar. Salvation involes restoration.

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

To be saved is essentially to be destined for glorification, right?

Now, there are those who believe one may be destined for glorification on Monday but, due to committing a "mortal" sin on Wednesday, is not destined for glorification on Wednesday evening. IOW, one may be saved on Monday, but not on the following Thursday.

However, even in that soteriological economy, that person's status is "not saved" on Thursday. Maybe no one but the LORD's aware of it, but still, if he'd go to perdition if he died on Thursday, he's not saved on Thursday.

Let me put it this way...if the LORD doesn't count someone as saved for eternal glory, that someone isn't saved.

To the FV/NPP, however, he's still saved in the LORD's view "in some sense" on Thursday.

Remember, this is where the bifurcated justification arises in the FV....from a bifurcated salvation.

Checked it with Jon Barlow several months ago and he agreed, by jingo. ;^)

__________________
Anne Ivy
Christ Chapel Bible Church
Fort Worth, Texas

Married to Don, mother of six, grandmother to an ever-increasing brood.

The Ivy Vine (my blog)

To go a little deeper, would not the issue for the FV come down to perserverance within salvation? Isn't this how one can be saved "in some sense" on Thursday but never in a real sense? One never knows who has been given the gift of perserverance? Therefore glorification is only a possibility and never an actuality (at least in some sense).

__________________
~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder - Inactive
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

The FV soteriological system is grounded in the temporal, i.e. what we can see and what we experience. Mind, it certainly acknowledges the eternal aspects of salvation but insists that since we can't know the plans the LORD has for anyone - ourselves included - we're to concentrate on the temporal aspects.

Those the LORD has marked for eternal salvation will persevere, while those He hasn't, won't. The difference between the FV explanation of this doctrine and the Reformed explanation is the former say those who persevered for a time possessed a valid faith in the true Christ, while the latter say if someone only perseveres for a time, it proves they never had valid faith in the true Christ at all.

This, naturally, is one place where the FV pulls the rug out from under assurance. If both Wilbur and Wanda possess true, valid faith in the Christ Who Is, and Wanda's faith goes the distance while Wilbur's trips and falls due to the LORD removing His persevering grace, then how can anyone who believes they do, in fact, have a valid faith in the true Christ be confidant the LORD will keep the persevering grace coming?

They can't. Very depressing.

However, ISTM where the FV really stubs its toes is when it comes to those who are deceived as to their faith, yet persevere in it until the end. Unless I've badly misunderstood virtually all of the Reformed books and articles I've read, the traditional Reformed view is that someone whose faith is not real was never saved, period. Not in any way. No matter that he was baptized and may have taken communion every single week for decades....no true faith, no salvation.

For the life of me I've never been able to deduce how the FV would explain such a person winding up being barred from entering heaven's gate. I've asked several times, as have others, but to my recollection there's not been a comprehensible, substantive response given. If someone never actively repudiates Christ, and keeps covenant faithfulness by church attendance and taking the Lord's Supper, why would such a person be turned away at the end?

But I digress. The primary point is that someone who has not been marked out for perseverance, or who perseveres but has a false faith, is regarded as "saved" - in the ubiquitous "in some sense" - by the FV. Here's a bit from Jon Barlow, posted at Green Baggins five months ago (according to Google documents, which is where I hammered together a response to him at the time):

"...when one joins the visible church, he is now part of a new society - separated from the world, given a new name (”Christian”), having new social relationships with others, living life in and among the body of Christ, exposed to the preaching of the Word and the administration of the sacraments, subject to receiving brotherly love and favor from other church members, under the discipline of God’s ordained ministers and elders, invited to the Church Christmas party, the pig roast, eating donuts with other members in the fellowship hall after church, having one’s children in Sunday School, having one’s spouse getting training in the Bible and in the ethics of relationships, getting to hear glorious music sung in praise of God, getting to raise one’s hands and pray with the company of other believers, etc.. Now, to me, that is a lot of what salvation is - being a resident of Bethlehem rather than Sodom, living among Yahweh worshipers rather than among Molech worshipers." (emphasis added)

No, I replied, that is not what salvation is. Jesus did not live, suffer, die and be resurrected so that anyone could eat donuts and listen to glorious music.

He and I parted cordially, agreeing to disagree. Our views of salvation are simply different, that's all.

Which brings us back to my theory: a wrong view of salvation is guaranteed to elicit a wrong view of justification. If someone's wrong view of justification has its roots in a wrong view of salvation, there's no point to trying to "fix" their view of justification while leaving their view of salvation alone.

(My apologies if this post is wildly disjointed, but I've been in and out and up and down while composing it.)

Anne

__________________
Anne Ivy
Christ Chapel Bible Church
Fort Worth, Texas

Married to Don, mother of six, grandmother to an ever-increasing brood.

The Ivy Vine (my blog)

I hesitate to frame it like that because it seems to reduce salvation to escapism. While we deny the dispensational fire-insurance, the doctrine then seems to be framed on the same terms. I like the Bavinck way: restoration of man under God in the Kingdom of God. Sure, heaven and all that. Heaven is important, but it is not the end of the world.

Of course, I agree with you. We don't "lose" our salvation, either. I have no problem saying that salvation has temporal benefits (note the connection between the terms for salvation and health in other languages).

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Hi Anne,

I only have a few seconds so I might have to unpack this later. I like a story that Dr. R. C. Sproul tells about being accosted on the street one time and asked: "Are you saved?" Dr. Sproul replied, "Saved from what?" to which the inquirer had no answer.

I recount that incident to say that salvation is ultimately being saved from the wrath of our holy and just God. Glorification results from that because to be saved from His wrath, we must be reborn (Jn 3), justified and sanctified by the blood of Christ, being covered (imputed) with Christ's righteousness (active and passive obedience), and all by His grace. All that is necessary before we can be truly saved from His just wrath, and all that have these given to us by grace (i.e., the elect) are truly saved. Salvation is digital--either yes or no. There is not temporary in-between status or mythical "objective covenant".

To some extent, I think that's were FV misses the point of salvation. The reprobate in the visible church, despite the baptism, preaching, pig roasts, and pot lucks, are NEVER saved from God's wrath at ANY time. Once the elect are regenerated and justified, they are ETERNALLY and completely saved from God's wrath. Jesus describes the reprobate in the visible church as the tares and the elect as the wheat. The tares were never temporarily wheat that just didn't persevere.

I don't know if that makes any sense, but it sounds like the beginnings of a new blog post...

__________________
Bob Mattes
Ruling Elder, Christ Church of Arlington (PCA), Arlington, VA
Reformed Musings Blog

"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke
"We old folks have to find our cushions and pillows in our tankards. Strong beer is the milk of the old." -Martin Luther

Just so, Bob!

I like the digital illustration. ;^)

Yes, that's precisely where the FV falls off the dock regarding salvation, and it's from that error that the rest of the "temporary union" errors flow.

__________________
Anne Ivy
Christ Chapel Bible Church
Fort Worth, Texas

Married to Don, mother of six, grandmother to an ever-increasing brood.

The Ivy Vine (my blog)

That does remind me of the way the Psalmist often uses the term "salvation".

Weren't the words of Acts 4:12 "there is no other name under heaven, given among men, by which we must be saved' originally applied to Caesar Augustus - who promised to bring military, economic and societal salvation to the Roman Empire?

__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Right. Salvation cannot be separated from kingship and ruling.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I'm missing your point, I fear. Are you saying that anyone who deliberately places themselves...or is placed as a tot through baptism...under Christ's kingship is, in some sense, saved? Even if they are not elect and are never regenerated?

My apologies in advance if I'm being dim as a five-watt bulb.

__________________
Anne Ivy
Christ Chapel Bible Church
Fort Worth, Texas

Married to Don, mother of six, grandmother to an ever-increasing brood.

The Ivy Vine (my blog)

No, I never mentioned baptism and do not hold to baptismal regeneration. I don't know where that came in.

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Alright, delete the baptism reference.

I'm not argumentative by nature, nor unusually smart or dumb as dirt, but I've had a rough time figuring out how your posts have addressed the point I was trying to make initially, which is that a bifurcated, dual-level salvation naturally leads to a bifurcated, dual-level justification, sanctification, etc., and that it's useless to address the dual-level justification error while leaving the dual-level salvation error untouched.

Where Christ's kingship and ruling fits into this, I'm not sure. Could you 'splain, please? ;^)

Mare-see boo-koo.

__________________
Anne Ivy
Christ Chapel Bible Church
Fort Worth, Texas

Married to Don, mother of six, grandmother to an ever-increasing brood.

The Ivy Vine (my blog)

It seems like Anne is simply trying to find a way to explain the errors of FV to the folks in the pews. They're likely to find arguments about justification obscure. (I think she's right, BTW, remember all the fuss in the news when ECT came out, and people were told that the RC and the Lutherans had ended their historic disagreement on justification by faith?) Most people unfortunately get it down to fire-insurance; am I going to heaven or hell; so to explain to them that FV teaches that there are two kinds of salvation, temporary and permanent, might help them understand.

Granted, we know that permanent salvation has temporal benefits!

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Hmmm...I like how you phrased that: bifurcated salvation = dual level justification. I am going to dwell on that befor e I answer.

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

You treasure!

Exactly. And there can certainly be - and, through God's grace, often are - temporal benefits and blessings that come along with salvation, but not necessarily. Some of our brothers and sisters in Christ live in areas where the temporal benefits such as Jon Barlow outlined are nonexistent, and in fact their temporal situation would be much improved were they to abandon Christ.

But they don't. Praise God for such saints as they. They don't.

Can't imagine going to someone enduring frequent persecution for the faith and nattering on about temporary salvation and potluck suppers and great music.

__________________
Anne Ivy
Christ Chapel Bible Church
Fort Worth, Texas

Married to Don, mother of six, grandmother to an ever-increasing brood.

The Ivy Vine (my blog)

Ok, I think we are talking about each other and using "temporal" in at least three different ways.

First, my original thoughts: it seemed to me that you were using salvation in a very narrow sense. It looked like you formed the doctrine to merely be "escape" from creation into heaven. I realize that is not the point of your posts, which I didn't interact with. I merely thought before we can go there, we have to clear up some debris. While I understand the point about security and salvation, I have problems with how the term is being used. I think there are more dimensions to it.

Secondly, I added another dimension to salvation: restoration and kingship. Salvation restores man to godly rule under God. If he restores him, then what was his original goal and purpose--dominion and to bring the world from the Garden of Eden outward unto God. The fact that the ungodly persecute our brethren does not change the fact of this doctrine.

Thirdly, what about temporality? Does "persecution" undo the kingship aspect of salvation? Absolutely not. Revelation 2, 5, 6, and 20 speak of the godly ruling on earth in the millennial kingdom (I realize many of my Reformed brethern disagree with me here--fine).

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Anne,

Boy! Now I fear this post is going to be lengthy but I'm going to *try* to acknowledge a few things you said and, hopefully, clarify some things.

I think, in one sense, you are right. Rome and the Reformation agree on that there is merit involved in salvation. The FV borrow some NPP ideas that originally claimed that Paul didn't understand Judaism was a religion of Grace. Then others came along and stated that Luther really messed up Pauline theology.

Rome and the Refomation agree on the idea that, though salvation is worked in a corporate setting, there is a concern for how the individual is saved. Rome though, departs from the Scriptures in defining an idea of congruent merit where we do the best we can do and God is gracious to "fill in the gaps" and reward us more than we deserve. We have to do our part. Yes, you're right, in the RCC system, as long as you have just enough merit then you will at least get to purgatory and, whether a second there or a million years, all eventually get to heaven.

It is, at its heart, semi-Pelagian because, although they insist Grace is necessary for salvation, Grace is not sufficient to save in itself but we must cooperate with the Grace. We can thus cooperate with Grace to superabounding merit that not only gets us directly into heaven but we can have excess to contribute to others who are slackers. Alternatively, we can frustrate the Grace and sin and actually kill all saving grace within us and be immediately bound for Hell with a single act. The hope, then, that a Roman Catholic has is not the kind that 2 Peter 1:1-4 speaks of as an inheritance waiting to be fulfilled. Rather, for the moment, I have hope that I've obeyed today, all my sins are confessed and absolved by penance and works of charity, and that I plan on obeying for the foreseeable future.

Thus the Sacraments become key to this system as the Church can dispense Grace to make up for our slackness in these areas and actually give us merit that we don't have to perform acts of contrition for. In fact, Baptism is so "super-duper gracious" that it washes away sin entirely. I've actually heard Roman Catholics envious of older people that get baptized because they get that huge "get out of jail" free card where the rest of them will have to perform works of charity to overcome their misdeeds or pay the Church for them in the form of indulgences.

I think you understand this all Anne but I want to build the picture for others reading this.

Now, the Reformed view is completely different. It confesses, with the Scriptures, that God justifies the unrigteous. The man is not actually just but God declares Him to be Just. He does not do so capriciously, of course, as His Justice has been satisfied in the Cross. The sole instrument of laying hold of Christ and His benefits is faith alone. Through faith a man is un