Now I am more confused...lol

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N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI

"Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

AG, it is very confusing and would probably take a few weeks of research to begin to get a grip on the dynamics.

One thing to keep in mind: Jordan, and many other critics, have no real standing to criticize a given Presbyterian body's disciplinary proceedings because they aren't members of that church. The PCA is proceeding according to its own order.

And another thing to consider: rhetoric's effectiveness is inversely proportional to level of invective. In other words, as a general rule, the more name-calling you hear, the less you should listen. I think this applies to all things, not just ecclesiastical matters.

__________________
Raymond Victor Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

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Just posted the following to Warfield:

Hi All,

Given that James Jordan's comments were posted here, its only right that his apology on Ron Gleason's blog also be posted.

Gentlemen,

I hereby ask your forgiveness for my several overheated posts over the last few days. I have deleted all but the first, which is the only thing I had any right to post to you; to wit: that there is nothing wrong with anyone's commenting on the public actions and behavior of certain parties in the PCA, behavior that is public and that some regard as shocking and scandalous.

I was out of line in my comments here, partly because the rhetoric I employed is not appropriate in a public blog, and partly because, being neither in the PCA nor a presbyterian, anything beyond a general expression of concern or horror at how these affairs are being conducted is inappropriate.

I allowed my friendship with persons I believe are being wrongfully persecuted to inflame my language, and I wrote in anger, and I should not have done so.

So, please forgive me for having troubled your waters, and be assured that it will not happen again.

Sincerely,

James B. Jordan

Gary Johnson has asked the rather important question if (as was the case with Reggie Kidd) Jordan will be issuing a personal apology to the men he strongly defamed such as R.C. Sproul, and the SJC.

Also, I'm wondering how these recent overheated posts differ substantialy from the prior pattern of defamations, which have included this piece published in Biblical Horizons which referred to "the Warfield List (where idiocy abounds)" and stated: Do Allan Strange, the OPC, and the nearly 700 members of the Warfield List not qualify for an apology and a retraction as well?Your Servant in Christ,

Andy Webb

__________________
Pastor Andy Webb
Providence PCA, Fayetteville, NC
BUILDING OLD SCHOOL CHURCHES
"Providence is a Christian's diary, but not his Bible. Sometimes a bad cause prevails and gets ground; but it is not to be liked because it prevails. We must not think the better of what is sinful, because it is successful. This is no rule for our actions to be directed by." - Thomas Watson

First I'd recommend you read Dr. Clark's excellent summary entitled "For those of you just tuning in" it really is intended to bring those new to the topic of the FV controversy up to date.

Also, the "Star" Reference was Jordan's ridiculous analogy to the "Star Chamber" of the English Monarchs. The Star Chamber was a special court stacked with the King's cronies that tried treason cases and was in essence the King's means of ensuring his political enemies were condemned to death.

As I said, read Clark's essay, but here are my short answers to your questions:

1,2&3) No, there are several PCA Presbyteries with FV proponents in them. They include Pacific Northwest, Missouri, and several others. The FV is an amalgamation of theological movements combining elements of Norman Shepherd's theology, the New Perspectives on Paul (Covenant Nomism), Anglo-Catholicism, post-theonomic, emergent/emerging church thought, and various strains of nominalism from Dutch and British sources along with a generous helping of "here's what I'm thinking today." It has been gathering momentum since 2002 and the AAPC conference. It's primary means of dissemination have been conferences, the internet, and, sadly, Seminaries.

Statistically, the number of FV men is tiny, but their influence has been magnified by the internet and because they've been partly successful in co-opting support from the moderate and liberal wings of Reformed churches. The appeal is "its our ox being gored today, but tomorrow it'll be yours!" That and the fact that Doug Wilson and his CREC have gotten behind the movement has made it a worldwide phenom in the Reformed world.

Also, sadly the more we respond, the more "air time" it gets. Another reason to stop discussing stuff with them, and just stick to discipline.

3) The SJC or Standing Judicial Commission, is a Permanent Commission of the PCA GA. It's members are proposed by the Presbyteries and elected on the floor of the GA. It's purpose is to try the cases referred to the GA as the final court of appeal. It is, in essence, our Supreme Court. Theologically, the majority of members of the court come from the Broadly Evangelical wing of the PCA, in fact our "big steeple" wing has had a lock on the membership of the SJC since its inception, so claims that these guys are in league with or in fact ARE "Strict Subscriptionist" "TRs" should be a source of nothing but humor.

I just want to thank you brother for asking the questions that you did. I had some basic questions but you covered those and more. I am on the same level as you (it seems) in terms of understanding this all

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Brian E
Attending Falls OPC
Menomonee Falls, WI

My understanding was that JBJ was likening the PCA's Commission with the Star Chamber.

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Richard
CofE
UK

Thank you sir! I read the first article and it was very helpful as an introduction to this! I will read the others as time permits

Which is ironic given the unjust court of the ARC of Tyler Texas fame.

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Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
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The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).

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While I hope Mr. Jordan's apology is sincere, and I don't have reason to believe otherwise (I too get highly worked up and it's a sensitive issue for him), I think he definately owes an apology to Dr. Sproul.

The fact that it is understandable the people get worked up on sesnsitive issues does not mitigate the fact that it needs to be apologized for. I would be held to the same standard, and so should he.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.

Wow! That is exactly what I was looking for. Between this and Dr. Clark's blog, it makes sense now. Thank you!

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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I recently read that it is very sad to see men stoop so low but it just shows the bankruptcy of the system.

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Aaron
Independent Baptist
Holland MI
Blog: earthdwell22.blogspot.com

I found the excerpt above helpful. Most of us don't have the stomach for this, but we have to wade through it anyway.

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HaigLaw, ruling elder
Grace PCA, Shreveport, LA
http://www.xanga.com/HaigLaw