FV and Eastern Orthodoxy

Romans922 · #1 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 09:38 AM

Sorry to keep bringing up FV

but it seems to me that any of the FV people that I see (obviously online) seem to be entangled/entranced by Eastern Orthodoxy.

What should we think of this, if this be true?

LadyFlynt · #2 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 09:53 AM

You know...I was thinking the same when I was trying to describe FV to someone online. Paedocommunion being the first thing to come to mind. The other is the mystical synergism.

ChristopherPaul · #3 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 10:19 AM

From what I have gathered from limited discussing with EOC members, the FV theology is not so new when you consider it in light of the EOC. The EOC sees us westerners battling this thing out as if it is something new meanwhile they have subscribed to such doctrines as the NPP and the FV for a long time.

So in effect, I guess the FV guys are not so much going back to Rome with this one, but back East.

Anyone know enough about the EOC to confirm this?

ChristopherPaul · #4 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 10:26 AM

btw, personally the EOC has more of an attraction to me than the FV, but the EOC is openly synergistic and if I were to embrace their soteriological views, then the FV type doctrines would fall into place better.

Theoretical · #5 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristopherPaul

From what I have gathered from limited discussing with EOC members, the FV theology is not so new when you consider it in light of the EOC. The EOC sees us westerners battling this thing out as if it is something new meanwhile they have subscribed to such doctrines as the NPP and the FV for a long time.

So in effect, I guess the FV guys are not so much going back to Rome with this one, but back East.

Anyone know enough about the EOC to confirm this?

Interesting...if there are these ties to Eastern Orthodoxy, is FV in some sense the Emerging Church crossing with Reformed Theology? I know many of the hard-core Emerging Church people are definitely into looking East for inspiration, and some have indeed converted. Is FV merely a more theologically-inclined branch of the same movement that wants to look East?

Romans922 · #6 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 11:19 AM

I would enjoy a response from Dr. R. Scott Clark on this one!

Theoretical · #7 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

I would enjoy a response from Dr. R. Scott Clark on this one!

ChristopherPaul · #8 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theoretical

Interesting...if there are these ties to Eastern Orthodoxy, is FV in some sense the Emerging Church crossing with Reformed Theology? I know many of the hard-core Emerging Church people are definitely into looking East for inspiration, and some have indeed converted. Is FV merely a more theologically-inclined branch of the same movement that wants to look East?

This is my muddy understanding of it Scott.

The Emergent church is becoming the Protestant version of Eastern Orthodoxy. They share the same view on Sola Scriptura and are reverting back to the use of high liturgies and icons. The FV group are at odds with the EOC and Emerging church's views on Sola Scriptura, but yet coming to the same understanding of justification as both EOC and the Emergent church.

Granted I just totally used labels to address three groups that are almost impossible to corner into a nice and neat box with such labels attached to it. So such generalizations will probably be futile for now. So take all this with a grain of salt.

Romans922 · #9 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristopherPaul

This is my muddy understanding of it Scott.

The Emergent church is becoming the Protestant version of Eastern Orthodoxy. They share the same view on Sola Scriptura and are reverting back to the use of high liturgies and icons. The FV group are at odds with the EOC and Emerging church's views on Sola Scriptura, but yet coming to the same understanding of justification as both EOC and the Emergent church.

Granted I just totally used labels to address three groups that are almost impossible to corner into a nice and neat box with such labels attached to it. So such generalizations will probably be futile for now. So take all this with a grain of salt.

When FV guys comes here and reads this, they are going to FLIP and are going to write about 1,000,000 blog posts about it.

Theoretical · #10 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

When FV guys comes here and reads this, they are going to FLIP and are going to write about 1,000,000 blog posts about it.

Indeed they will.

ChristopherPaul · #11 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

When FV guys comes here and reads this, they are going to FLIP and are going to write about 1,000,000 blog posts about it.

I am sure you are probably right. Same with the EOC and Emergent gang too...

ChristopherPaul · #12 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

...write about 1,000,000 blog posts about it.

The only blogs I read are those authored by approved teachers (my posts above will give you a good indication as to why). So unless one of the few blogs I browse from time to time actually respond (very unlikely) I will never even notice anyway.

Robin · #13 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 02:30 PM

Fwiw, things like FV will veer towards anything "Romish." It has to.

It's always about confusing Law/Gospel and the covenants. Arrogance drives it.

Obviously, Dr. Clark is the best voice to unpack the details on FV's connection to things like EO.

Meanwhile, thank God that resources like this are available:

http://dannyhyde.squarespace.com/dis...tegoryId=90362

Chris, you're right! Be ready for a ton of data to be dumped on the discussion rather than fair, considerate dialog. One reason why it's pointless to interact with FV unless it's done through publications like Westminster is putting out.

Robin

tewilder · #14 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

Sorry to keep bringing up FV

but it seems to me that any of the FV people that I see (obviously online) seem to be entangled/entranced by Eastern Orthodoxy.

What should we think of this, if this be true?

There are two levels to this.

1) Some FV writers, e.g. Jordan, read some prominent EO writers, and used some of their ideas. How deep the influence went I never could be sure. My impression is that some critics read more into this than what the true amount of influence was.

2) The FV likes robes, ritual, weekly sacraments, etc. Some younger people who have transited through the FV--and here we are talking about followers, not FV leaders--were attracted to churches that also had the ceremonials. Various ones moved on to denominations with a more ritualistic turn. Here is my impression of the ones that attracted FV people into them, ranked from most attractive to least: Episcopalianism, Lutheranism, Greek Orthodoxy, Rome.

yeutter · #15 (**permalink**) 01-19-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tewilder

The FV likes robes, ritual, weekly sacraments, etc. Some younger people who have transited through the FV--and here we are talking about followers, not FV leaders--were attracted to churches that also had the ceremonials. Various ones moved on to denominations with a more ritualistic turn. Here is my impression of the ones that attracted FV people into them, ranked from most attractive to least: Episcopalianism, Lutheranism, Greek Orthodoxy, Rome.

The Rt. Revd. N. T. Wright is held in high esteme by many FV types. The FV types I have encountered in Anglicanism are enthralled by Rite 2 of the 1979 Prayerbook. I wonder if there is a relationship.

ChristopherPaul · #16 (**permalink**) 01-24-2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Sin, salvation and the incarnation
Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, thus introducing the disease of sin into mankind. This event, the Fall of Man, altered the dynamic state of humanity's existence, making it prone to sin, which is an ontological separation from God. Although it is now possible for human beings to choose not to sin, their tendency is toward it. The consequence of the Fall is the introduction of death to humanity; it is death—and the fear of it—which is seen to be the progenitor of man's sins. [4] All mankind is thus in need of salvation, which is the process of restoring man to the pure state in which he was created and growing him even beyond that toward perfection. This process, termed theosis (Greek, "deification" or "divinization"), is eternal and is the continual deepening of communion between God and man, a unification without fusion of the human person with the divine persons.[5]

The second person of the Trinity, the Son of God, thus became genuine man in order to accomplish salvation for humanity, which is incapable of doing so on its own. Eastern Orthodox theology teaches that when the Son of God became the man Jesus Christ, he took on human nature while keeping his divine nature. He is thus one person (hypostasis) with two natures. Orthodox soteriology is therefore aimed at the bringing of man by grace to become what Christ is by nature, that is, being holy. This process neither sacrifices monotheism nor the eternal distinction between the created and the uncreated, because it is eternal and there is no final arrival point.[6]

Progress toward salvation is accomplished in the earthly life only by God's grace, with which man must freely cooperate. The free cooperation of man includes prayer, asceticism, participation in the sacraments, following the commandments of Christ, and above all, repentance of sin. Salvation is thus for the whole human person, involving both the body and the soul. [7]

Source [The Orthodox Church. Ware, Timothy. Pengiun Books, 1997. (ISBN 0-14-014656-3)]