Referring to the claim of Heresy in regards to belief in Heresy, I was reading the following article on A Puritan's Mind found here and I noticed the Mr. McMahon declares that adherents to the federal vision embrace a 'damnable' heresy. He then goes on the claim that their beliefs are Lutheran and High Episcopalian. So, what I am asking is, does he believe that all who do not adhere to a reformed confession are lost?
Referring to the claim of Heresy in regards to belief in Heresy, I was reading the following article on A Puritan's Mind found here and I noticed the Mr. McMahon declares that adherents to the federal vision embrace a 'damnable' heresy. He then goes on the claim that their beliefs are Lutheran and High Episcopalian. So, what I am asking is, does he believe that all who do not adhere to a reformed confession are lost?
Travis, is this what you gleaned from the article: that Dr. McMahon says FV theology is Lutheran and high Episcopalian and, therefore, heretical and damnable because it isn't Reformed?
I really think you need to re-read the article because your understanding is really far off the mark. Did you carefully read the article or skim over it?
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Rich
Northern VA
OPC
WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site. SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion
I read th article of concern. He claims that the doctrine is a damnable heresy. He then goes on to quote a person he calls their views on baptism Lutheran. All in all I am honestly just curious as to the belief on this board in general. Do most people here believe that if you do not hold to a Orthodox Reformed point of view that you are not regenerate/elect?
And please, please do not take this as an attack. I am just wanting to learn more about the whole situation.
Not an attack but just a poor summation of what the issue is. Busy right now but if nobody takes it up by tomorrow (my time), I'll explain the article to you. Read it again, though, and don't focus on the Lutherand and Anglican dealie but on the article as a whole.
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Rich
Northern VA
OPC
WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site. SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion
Okay I read it again. I have dropped the whole Luther/Anglican thing because I misread it, my apologies. However, I am still interested to know if people on this board believe that the only way one can be saved is if they hold to the 5 Solas of the Reformation.
For example, would you consider your typical American non-reformed SBC'er to be regenerate?
Okay I read it again. I have dropped the whole Luther/Anglican thing because I misread it, my apologies. However, I am still interested to know if people on this board believe that the only way one can be saved is if they hold to the 5 Solas of the Reformation.
For example, would you consider your typical American non-reformed SBC'er to be regenerate?
If God has regenerated him, yes.
I deny one has to have maturation of theology (DoG) to be saved.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. James 1:27
IMHO, the reason Matt is calling it heresy hasn't got to do iwth Calvinism per se, it's about how we are saved - is it our good works, or is it Jesus' works imputed to us?
If the SBC'er is trusting Christ for his salvation, he's regenerate - but he might be woefully ignorant.
__________________ The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873 Meg Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR
I believe that Scripture tells us that the absolute bottom line is that we are saved by WHO we know and not by WHAT we know. Unfortunately that kind of statement is quickly mishandled by those who believe doctrine is cold, stale and dead. The WHO is revealed by the WHAT - Christ is only revealed through the teachings of scripture. The WHO must be consistent with the WHAT - we are saved by the biblical Christ.
That being said, it's the WHO that does the saving.
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Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
I just know there's got to be a pony in here somewhere!
That being said, it's the WHO that does the saving.
And it is because of the WHO that we have a living hope (1 Peter 1:3), for the WHO is the first-born from the dead (Col. 1:18), the hope of our future resurrection (1 Cor. 15:52).
To God be the glory, great things He hath done!
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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland
I don't know what the irreducible minimum of true belief is that is necessary for salvation. Also I don't know how much error and of what type one can hold at the same time.
But this is not the only issue about heresy. If heresies are not opposed, and the teaching of them in the churches prohibited, the will grow. Around them practices will grow up that train people to put their faith in the wrong things, as has happened historically with the sacrifice of the mass, penances that are ordeals that expiate sin, indulgences, etc. These practices training the belief of subsequent generations.
Some of the debate today is over what must be believed for saving faith to exist. There are those that claim, for example, that we can be justified by faith alone, by believing that Jesus saves us some how or other, and without that believing including the doctrine of justification by faith alone as part it its content. But when the church begins to teach that we are not justified by faith alone, then the people will resort to something other than faith. They will resort to works, submission to institutions, rituals, etc., placing their trust in something other than Jesus. Then the faith in Jesus, however, minimal it must be to be saving, is altogether gone.
First, the church has made definitive statements on heresy. The early church creeds and the latter confessions (WCF and LBC as examples) have stated what is the orthodox faith.
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But when the church begins to teach that we are not justified by faith alone, then the people will resort to something other than faith.
For the elect your statement is an impossibility. The elect cannot resort to something other than faith. Those who do embrace salvation by means other than sola fide are outside the faith. Jesus said:
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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Ultimately it is for church courts to decide who is a heretic (hold undeniably heretical views) and who is not. Seminaries and individuals are not charged with that task. They may provide useful input to the ecclesiastical process, but the final judgment rests with those properly called to the task.
If someone wishes to name someone as a heretic they need to do it by offering proper judicial charges to support their claims.
I find it particularly repugnant when folks in one denomination make changes against ministers in another denomination with which they have some sort of ecclesiastical fellowship. It tends to undermine the unity of the church by questioning the judicial integrity of the other body.
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Tom Albrecht
Member, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.
"I'm not a famous man. I'm just a simple country doctor with horse sense."
I guess I was just suprised at the claim of a 'damnable heresy' for the FV. Even though I am not one myself, I do consider Wilson, Leithart, Wright and the countless others involved in this brothers in Christ.
I find it particularly repugnant when folks in one denomination make changes against ministers in another denomination with which they have some sort of ecclesiastical fellowship. It tends to undermine the unity of the church by questioning the judicial integrity of the other body.
I believe, Tom, you meant "charges."
Matt can correct me, but I don't believe he was attacking a particular denomination.
There's certainly nothing wrong with defending doctrine, though. Especially with brothers in Christ.
To the original question: I've sometimes said that people may be saved *despite* the church they belong to, or the (errant) doctrine they believe that they believe. It's certainly too far to go to say that non-Reformed Christians are all outside the pale.
First, the church has made definitive statements on heresy. The early church creeds and the latter confessions (WCF and LBC as examples) have stated what is the orthodox faith.
Really? So are Baptists heretics (if the WCF defines the boundaries between heresy and orthodoxy) or are the Presbyeterians heretics, if the LBC does so?
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The elect cannot resort to something other than faith.
In the area of faith's role in regeneration the WCF and the LBC are essentially in agreement. I don't see any material difference between them.
W.C.F. on saving faith:
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The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word, by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.
1689 L.B.C. on saving faith:
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The grace of faith by which the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls is the work of the Spirit in their hearts. Normally it is brought into being through the preaching of the Word. By the Word and its ministry, by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, by prayer, and also by other means appointed by God, faith is increased and strengthened.
Regarding the elect not being able to resort to something other than faith; the point is that the elect will respond to the effectual call by faith. If they do not respond by faith they prove themselves not to be elect. Try as they might, enemies of sola fide cannot prevail because faith is not conveyed by man, but by God.
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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Matt can correct me, but I don't believe he was attacking a particular denomination.
And neither was I claiming that he was directly attacking another denomination, but comments against “the Auburn Four” (“If they do not repent of it, they will be damned for believing it.”) have the effect of denigrating a denomination in which some of these ministers are members in good standing, and will remain so until such time as their courts say otherwise. It must first be impartially established that "they" believe or teach any of the things which others have claimed for them.
By contrast, the statement from Mid-America Seminary has the distinction of tackling error without naming the “heretics” in advance.
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Originally Posted by beej6
There's certainly nothing wrong with defending doctrine, though. Especially with brothers in Christ.
All I’m suggesting is that there are proper ways of approaching the problem.
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Tom Albrecht
Member, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.
"I'm not a famous man. I'm just a simple country doctor with horse sense."
Regarding the elect not being able to resort to something other than faith; the point is that the elect will respond to the effectual call by faith. If they do not respond by faith they prove themselves not to be elect. Try as they might, enemies of sola fide cannot prevail because faith is not conveyed by man, but by God.
But when the church begins to teach that we are not justified by faith alone, then the people will resort to something other than faith.
What church are you talking about? It can't be the true church. The "what" you are asking about is more of a "why." Why won't the true church teach something other than faith? Because the true church is made up of God's elect, who became so because of faith.
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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of *Christ depart from iniquity."
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My name is Davis. I am the Lord's.
I gather with saints at Bethel Presbyterian Church here in Lake Charles, LA, where I live.
[b][SIZE="3"]"[/SIZE][/b][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]I dwell in the high and holy place, also with him that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones[/COLOR].[b][SIZE="3"]"[/SIZE][/b] -Our Father, the Lord God (Isaiah 57:15)
What church are you talking about? It can't be the true church. The "what" you are asking about is more of a "why." Why won't the true church teach something other than faith? Because the true church is made up of God's elect, who became so because of faith.
