The Federal Vision and the Doctrine of Assurance

Daniel Ritchie · #1 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 08:35 AM

Can a Federal Visionist ever have assurance? How does one know that one has done enough works of covenantal faithfulness in order to be justified on the last day?

Gryphonette · #2 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 09:40 AM

You don't. The FV stomps assurance right into the ground, since while the LORD knows those who He will preserve in faith until the end, the rest of us have to wait till we die to discover whether or not we outlive our faith.

Poimen · #3 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 10:44 AM

Judging by their constant attempt to get people to back away from the fires they have created, (what I call the 'nothing to see here folks' attitude) and anger and bitterness towards anyone that critiques them because the critics are always WRONG, it is obvious that the FV people are much better than you or I. And so they can have assurance that you and I lack because they are 'holier than thou'.

markkoller · #4 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 10:57 AM

I commonly hear, "look to your baptism" as all the assurance that one needs in the FV scheme. If you are baptized you are in the covenant and therefore saved. These people despise introspection and self examination, so the normal means of seeking assurance do not apply.

toddpedlar · #5 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markkoller

I commonly hear, "look to your baptism" as all the assurance that one needs in the FV scheme. If you are baptized you are in the covenant and therefore saved. These people despise introspection and self examination, so the normal means of seeking assurance do not apply.

Indeed, "look to your baptism" is the mantra they will continually repeat.... but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...

Poimen · #6 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 11:06 AM

In all seriousness though Steve Wilkins posits assurance in this way:

Quote:

"by baptism the Spirit joins us to Christ since he is the elect one and the Church is the elect people, we are joined to his body. We therefore are elect. Since he is the justified one, we are justified in him. Since he is the beloved one, we are beloved in him. Since he was saved from sin in death, in the sense that Hebrews 5 says, "who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with vehement cries and tears to him who was able to save him from death and was heard because of his godly fear," he was saved from sin and death, so are we."

"The Legacy of the Half-Way Covenant"

Thus temporary assurance can be obtained for every covenant (read 'baptized') member. Furthermore he later goes on to say that one must continue to 'abide in Christ' but as long as they do so they keep their assurance.

MOSES · #7 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poimen

In all seriousness though Steve Wilkins posits assurance in this way:

Quote:

"by baptism the Spirit joins us to Christ since he is the elect one and the Church is the elect people, we are joined to his body. We therefore are elect. Since he is the justified one, we are justified in him. Since he is the beloved one, we are beloved in him. Since he was saved from sin in death, in the sense that Hebrews 5 says, "who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with vehement cries and tears to him who was able to save him from death and was heard because of his godly fear," he was saved from sin and death, so are we."

"The Legacy of the Half-Way Covenant"

Thus temporary assurance can be obtained for every covenant (read 'baptized') member. Furthermore he later goes on to say that one must continue to 'abide in Christ' but as long as they do so they keep their assurance.

Thanks Poimen

It is nice to see someone actually quote an FV proponent when accusing them. I have found many people saying "this and that" about the FV, but fail to provide any quote or evidence.

For someone like me who is doing some reading and reasearch on the issue it definitely helps...Believe me, I am not going to take some guy's word about how "bad" it is, I will need quotes and evidence.

MOSES · #8 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...

This is not distinct to the FV is it?

This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).

Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.

toddpedlar · #9 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOSES

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...

This is not distinct to the FV is it?

This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).

Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.

So in other words, you're never *really* sure that you're saved, then?

MOSES · #10 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOSES

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...

This is not distinct to the FV is it?

This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).

Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.

So in other words, you're never *really* sure that you're saved, then?

Don't ask me...here's the WCF, a much more reliable source.

Quote:

3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

Hippo · #11 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 12:42 PM

The FV seem to redefine what it means to be saved as being temporal salvation, i,e, remaining in the visible covenant. the point they make is that this is all that can be known without what is seen as damaging introspection.

The question of decretal salvation is a seperate one, that is determined by the hidden councils of God.

The FV view on works would concentrate on the revelation in James that faith without works is dead i.e. a faith that is not alone.

My problem with their anlaysis is to say that one is saved temporaly still begs the question as to whether one is saved decretely, it almost demands that we be satisfied with our temporal state and not look for any more than that.

However God often uses a concern for our eternal state as the means by which we reach a state of repentance, people should be concerned about their eternal state and the Church should address a persons eternal state not teach that we should only look to our temporal state.

tdowns007 · #12 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poimen

In all seriousness though Steve Wilkins posits assurance in this way:

Quote:

"by baptism the Spirit joins us to Christ since he is the elect one and the Church is the elect people, we are joined to his body. We therefore are elect. Since he is the justified one, we are justified in him. Since he is the beloved one, we are beloved in him. Since he was saved from sin in death, in the sense that Hebrews 5 says, "who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with vehement cries and tears to him who was able to save him from death and was heard because of his godly fear," he was saved from sin and death, so are we."

"The Legacy of the Half-Way Covenant"

Thus temporary assurance can be obtained for every covenant (read 'baptized') member. Furthermore he later goes on to say that one must continue to 'abide in Christ' but as long as they do so they keep their assurance.

That sure sounds close to what I heard Hank Hanegraff saying the other day....

...when asked about election.

Poimen · #13 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippo

The FV view on works would concentrate on the revelation in James that faith without works is dead i.e. a faith that is not alone.

The irony being that despite what one might make of James 2 in regards to the doctrine of justification in Christ, James makes it very clear that there is no salvation at all for those who have a dead faith (James 2:14)

KMK · #14 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markkoller

I commonly hear, "look to your baptism" as all the assurance that one needs in the FV scheme. If you are baptized you are in the covenant and therefore saved. These people despise introspection and self examination, so the normal means of seeking assurance do not apply.

How does a FVer 'look to his baptism' if he was baptized as an infant?

Poimen · #15 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOSES

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...

This is not distinct to the FV is it?

This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).

Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.

Certainly Max Weber popularized this position with his work "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Calvinism" but Mr. Weber was no Calvinist and as far as I know, wasn't even a professing Christian.

So you will need to demonstrate this point with citations from our creeds/catechisms etc. that this view of election is confessionally Reformed. It may be that some Pilgrim Fathers held to this theology but that is far from making it orthodox.

Assurance of salvation/election based on works not a 'maintenance' theology (contra the FV); it is a 'fruit theology'

Quote:

The elect in due time, though in various degrees and in different measures, attain the assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election, not by inquisitively prying into the secret and deep things of God, but by observing in themselves with a spiritual joy and holy pleasure the infallible fruits of election pointed out in the Word of God such as, a true faith in Christ, filial fear, a godly sorrow for sin, a hungering and thirsting after righteousness, etc.

Canons of Dordt, 1.12 (cf. Heidelberg Catechism, LD 32).

MOSES · #16 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poimen

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOSES

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

but then they will also always look to their works to make sure they can rightly have assurance because of their baptism. In the FV scheme, ultimately, baptism gives no assurance, because they argue that one must 'persevere in good works to the end' in order to be 'finally' saved. It's an extremely mixed bag of false assurances they cart around...

This is not distinct to the FV is it?

This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).

Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.

Certainly Max Weber popularized this position with his work "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Calvinism" but Mr. Weber was no Calvinist and as far as I know, wasn't even a professing Christian.

So you will need to demonstrate this point with citations from our creeds/catechisms etc. that this view of election is confessionally Reformed. It may be that some Pilgrim Fathers held to this theology but that is far from making it orthodox.

Assurance of salvation/election based on works not a 'maintenance' theology (contra the FV); it is a 'fruit theology'

Quote:

The elect in due time, though in various degrees and in different measures, attain the assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election, not by inquisitively prying into the secret and deep things of God, but by observing in themselves with a spiritual joy and holy pleasure the infallible fruits of election pointed out in the Word of God such as, a true faith in Christ, filial fear, a godly sorrow for sin, a hungering and thirsting after righteousness, etc.

Canons of Dordt, 1.12 (cf. Heidelberg Catechism, LD 32).

I am not saying it is orthodox at all.

My point was simply that this way of thinking is not DISTINCT to the FV.

KMK · #17 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOSES

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOSES

This is not distinct to the FV is it?

This is a historic belief in all of Calvinism and was really coined in the saying the "Puritan work ethic." It was a common thought in Pilgrim America that ones election was unsure, but you could show yourself "elect" by working hard in your daily life, trade, etc...and if you were successful you had even more assurance of your election. If you were lazy you were not elect.
This type of thought was what brought about captialism in America as well (according to some historians).

Note: Of course we are told in scripture to "Work out" our salvation in fear and trembling.

So in other words, you're never *really* sure that you're saved, then?

Don't ask me...here's the WCF, a much more reliable source.

Quote:

3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

Before paragraph 3, the WCF says this:

Quote:

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probably persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon 1) the divine truth of the promises of salvation,2) the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, 3) the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

The Divines seem to believe that assurance is based on three things: God's promises, inward evidence, and the testimony of the Spirit.

'Inward evidence' seems to be the ability to discern the particulars of grace.

Quote:

LC Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?

A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavour to walk in all good conscience before him,[349] may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made,[350] and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God,[351] be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.[352]

The Divines do add "and endeavour to walk in all good conscience before him...' but their emphasis seems to be on the heart and not the works, hence the word 'endeavor'.

Is 'endeavoring' to walk in all good conscience the same as the FV 'covenantal obedience'?