Having reviewed John Otis' book Danger in the Camp, I am coming under increasing attack from Federal Visionists. Steve Schlissel and others have landed on my blog, and this strange site: Whilin' Away the Hours has complained that I am misrepresenting them.

However, I count it a privilege to suffer reproach for the sake of the gospel, as it is the very gospel of free grace (not me) which is really under attack here.

__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Praying that you defend the Gospel well against this attack.

Ephes. 6:10
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

__________________
Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
PCA
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk

The "strange site" has been one of the biggest pro FV blogs for years and the owner (Barb Harvey) has been one of the biggest cheerleaders of the FV for years there and in other forums.

One of the commentators on your blog, Gabe Martini, used to belong to the RPCNA and was a prolific poster on the PB (often harshly criticizing the FV) until he went FV himself and had to leave.

I'm not so sure about it "not being a woman's place" however. Our newest moderator here, Anne Ivy, (gryphonette) has argued against the FV for years. So I suppose based on your reasoning that she should cease her activities and relinquish her moderatorship here as well since it is not limited to the Tea Parlor.

I seem to recall that Jenny Geddes didn't shy away from theological controversy!

__________________
Chris Poe--Attending Grace Community Baptist Church, Mandeville, LA

"There never was a man in the world without a creed. What is a creed? A creed is what you believe. What is a confession? It is a declaration of what you believe. That declaration may be oral or it may be committed to writing, but the creed is there either expressed or implied."—B.H. Carroll

Fair point...though there is an air of disrespect when a woman challenges a soundly Reformed person in the manner that this lady did. I don't mind Anne and Jenny Geddes throwing stools at heretics.

__________________
~James Helbert~, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

"Villain! doest thou say mass in my lug?"
Put ol' Jenny after Barb. Or Anne will do lacking a time machine.

__________________
Chris Coldwell
Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian, A Journal for Discussion of Presbyterian Doctrine & Practice
• The Blue Banner Archive

When heresy rises in an evangelical body, it is never frank and open. It always begins by skulking, and assuming a disguise. Its advocates, when together, boast of great improvements, and congratulate one another on having gone greatly beyond the ‘old dead orthodoxy,’ and on having left behind many of its antiquated errors: but when taxed with deviations from the received faith, they complain of the unreasonableness of their accusers, as they ‘differ from it only in words.’ This has been the standing course of errorists ever since the apostolic age. Samuel Miller, Introductory essay, The Articles of the Synod of Dort (1841).

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I remember giving a lecture once on Social Covenanting at a Covenanter Youth meeting in Dromara and I quoted Jenny's words; the whole place nearly came down with laughter.

Welcome to the party.

If those cats are after you then you're probably doing the right thing.

__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Associate Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

BTW I have started reading Covenant, Justification and Pastoral Ministry, and enjoyed your opening essay, but since I only plan to read one article each Lord's Day, it will be a while before I get to the review.

They are at it again; note that one commenter says I need to guard my tongue for saying their view of justification is damnable heresy; this is ridiculous:

Whilin' Away the Hours

I lent my copy to our curate who whilst is FV sympathetic is not unorthodox.

__________________
Richard
CofE
UK

This is an apt blog post from Against Heresies

Barbara made a remark that she wished that FV critics would get emasculated and that I was part of some neo-Puritan Taliban; however, she has since removed it. My last comment on that strange blog responds to the "emasculation" allegation.

Let me get this right: the judaizers are calling for Paul's emasculation?

Wow. I have consistently seen the worst from FV proponents. Their reaction to criticism is not what I would attribute to learned theologians responding to critics of their view, but more akin to something else of a less mature manner.

I would think it would be best not engage a proponent of FV directly, and let them flap in the wind while you address the meat of the issue. There's no point in arguing with these people as their ears appear to be closed; it's much better to just argue against their view and show the falsity inherant therein. They appear to want to sidetrack discussion by being disrepectful and hateful, in order to draw attention away from criticizing their skewed theology. From there, they claim you're being uncharitable and mean and not addressing the issues.

I've had kinder treatment from non-believers, honestly.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

I agree with Andrew. For the most part it is a waste of time to even interact with them. If you listen to the original lectures that started this whole mess you will hear that they were never interested in the 'conversation' that they so boldly state they have wanted. However you will hear much arrogance and condescension in those lectures.

For yourself, just be charitable and open to correction. This is difficult to do when it does not come in a spirit of love but is nevertheless a requirement.

And remember that not all 'FV' supporters are truly FV. Some are just caught up the cult of personality, although one wonders if this is any better than the theology itself.

__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

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That's rich!

__________________
Rich
Okinawa, Japan

WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site.
SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion

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If nothing else, it is certainly a "New Perspective."

Hey Guys,

Help this ignorant Baptist understand. The FV fits quite nicely (hand in glove?) with the NPP? Since the NPP is such a seductive draw in the academy with NT exegetes genuflecting to Tom Wright left and right, won't this also tend to fuel the popularity of the FV among Reformed folks as their pastors come through the "system" where Wright is honored? Yet, I read on PB that at least some of you believe that FV has peaked and is losing popularity. Would someone please reconcile these seemingly contradictory strands for me? Thanks.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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The FV and NPP are complimentary but not identical. NPP is more of an academic movement that focuses narrowly on the issue of justification and Gentile inclusion, whereas the FV is more popular and broader, focusing on the covenant and its implication for the church and the Christian faith.

Both movements, however, tend to be critical of systematic theology and are largely ignorant, and in some cases arrogant, towards historical and confessional theology. They also tend to downplay the role of justification in the life of the believer, and, in some cases, lean towards a more synergistic view of the righteousness by which we are justified.

Some FV have been willing to criticize Wright and others (such as Doug Wilson) whereas men like Steve Schlissel have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

So you are correct: FV may be a channel for the NPP to grow in Reformed circles, but they should not be understood as compatible at all points.

It is truly a perverse situation.