Dr. Reggie Kidd

goretorade · #1 (**permalink**) 09-04-2007, 08:43 PM

I don't know if this is in the right forum but I read today Professor Reggie Kidd's (RTS Orlando) blog. It seems he was taking a swing at those who are protesting the federal vision and the new perspective. http://reggiekidd.com/RK/2007/09/03/...-annihilation/ Just wondering if anyone of the board had any thoughts about what Dr. Kidd has wrote?

weinhold · #2 (**permalink**) 09-04-2007, 08:53 PM

Good stuff. Though Kidd's exhortation is hyperbolic at points, it is entirely appropriate rhetorically. I especially enjoyed the ancient Greece analogy.

Poimen · #3 (**permalink**) 09-04-2007, 09:02 PM

I think his sentiments are appropriate but mis-targeted. There is great danger in the re-fashioning of biblical, covenant theology by the confusion of the NT Wright and the FV proponents and this should not be overlooked. Mr. Hutchinson, as always, responds very graciously.

Furthermore, more than a few in Reformed churches have been severely attacked by standing up to these movements with a Bible in their hands. It's not so one sided as presented there.

armourbearer · #4 (**permalink**) 09-04-2007, 09:13 PM

He is correct: a sense of proportion is needed; unity in fundamentals is important. Let's not blame erring brethren for every heretical tendency and problem in the church.

He is incorrect: one cannot portray this as a biblical v. systematic theology conflict. The biblical theology is itself being driven by dogmatic presuppositions, and leads to doctrinal conclusions which contradict confessional commitments.

SEAGOON · #5 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 01:00 PM

A few brief thoughts, if unpopular ones...

First off, way back in 1996 I took Pauline Epistles under Reggie Kidd. At the time, two things impressed me. First that he was very, very, bright, very hip and highly cultured, and that second he was much more theologically moderate than I. That worried me even then, because historically its not the screaming liberals who end up liberalizing the church, its the influential moderates who, under the flag of "tolerance," open the door for them and a host of other doctrinal errors. Kidd also tends to fly the Po-Mo flag very high and his philosophy is riddled with references to a both/and approach always being superior to either/or. This has led him to push not only for tolerance of the FV but also causes that will be the battles for conservatives in the PCA; women's ordination and the emerging church (although how a movement that emphasises personal autonomy and eschews "authoritarian metanarratives" could call itself the ekklesia is still beyond me).

He also tends in his posts to pose the well-worn "we need to stand together to fight our real enemies" argument and then poses out-and-out liberals, Mormons, and Muslims as the enemy and uses the Peloponnesian war as his parable for the church. This strategy incidentally harkens back to at least the Reformation when the Hapsburg Emperor warned that the schism caused by the Protestants would fatally weaken the ability of Christendom to face their real enemies, the Turks. Supposedly, in order to fight the culture wars, we need to stop opposing brave women who want to preach the gospel and welcome our Anglo-Catholic brothers into the PCA big-tent.

Well brothers, our real enemies are the World, the Flesh, and the Devil and historically they have always tried to focus our attention on the enemies without, rather than the enemies within who inevitably kill churches. When it comes to the death of denominations, its not Muslims or liberal governments that do them in, its a latitudinarian "whatever" spirit and ultimately a turning away from the true Gospel message of Justification by Faith Alone in favor of Moral reclamation and "winning the society." Sorry guys, while Islam is indeed a lie from the pit of hell, so is Covenant nomism, and I know which one will be more effective in beguilling Christians away to "another Gospel" in the long run.

So, while it is a well-spun yarn Kidd knits, its also an old one. It was used successfully to gut Presbyterian denominations in the 17th century in England, in the 18th century in Scotland, and in the 19th and 20th century in the USA. Be certain of this, if history teaches us anything, it is that once the forces we are supposed to "tolerate" today become entrenched, our particular scruples will no longer be tolerated and like countless conservatives in the past, we will end up being ejected from our nest by the Cuckoo that hatches from the egg we were told we had to tolerate.

fredtgreco · #6 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 01:32 PM

Paging Dr. Robert Speer, Dr. Robert Speer. Paging Dr. Charles Eerdman, Dr. Charles Eerdman....

goretorade · #7 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 08:37 PM

What do we do about profs. like Doug Green and Peter Enns from Westminster and John Frame also from RTS Orlando encouraging Kidd in his statements? These men are all professors in established reformed seminaries training future leaders in reformed churches...are the students safe at these schools?

Ivanhoe · #8 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 09:57 PM

email Kidd or Frame. Ask them what they are really getting at. They are good on responding to emails. That is a lot better form than hypotheticating what ifs.

Redaimie · #9 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 10:47 AM

I read it & was quite discouraged by what he said as well as the positive feedback received in the comments.

I pray for the church to be united it's what I truly long to see but what kind of church is it if it is united in error. I long for the day I can witness to my neighbor & than bring her to a church in the same neighborhood without having to travel miles & miles to find a church that preaches the word of God. I'm afraid that isn't going to happen with women in the pulpits , theatrical productions in the form of worship nor with a compromise of the gospel.
Compromise is not the answer nor is being called "machen's warrior children" & cannibals.

py3ak · #10 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 10:53 AM

What if his analogy is misapplied? Oh, sure, there's some big scary enemies out there. And no doubt minor internecine disagreements fueled largely by pride are not going to be helpful. But take another analogy. Shen-tzu has been challenged to battle by Li Wei, but Shen-tzu is afflicted with a debilitating diarrhea. Isn't it better to give our champion some coke and cheese before the fight starts?

SEAGOON · #11 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 05:36 PM

Take heart Mary, just remember that none of this is new. There weren't 50 contiguous years in the history of the church when it was not "by schisms rent assunder, by heresies distressed." The Puritans for instance, throughout the 16th and 17th centuries spent the majority of their time persecuted and villified by the majority and eventually ejected en masse from their pulpits in 1662. But as I said, take heart, God always preserves His remnant in every age and even now He has His Seven Thousand in the Reformed Churches.

Also there are blessings in all this. We learn and grow far more in the crucible, and true Christianity tends to spiritually thrive in the valley, not the mountaintop. Personally, being forever on the outside of the ecclesiastical hierarchy does wonders to subdue my cockiness and hubris. I'm bad as it is, but I'd be insufferable if I was ever as popular as say an RTS-Orlando Professor.

victorbravo · #12 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

What if his analogy is misapplied? Oh, sure, there's some big scary enemies out there. And no doubt minor internecine disagreements fueled largely by pride are not going to be helpful. But take another analogy. Shen-tzu has been challenged to battle by Li Wei, but Shen-tzu is afflicted with a debilitating diarrhea. Isn't it better to give our champion some coke and cheese before the fight starts?

I've been pondering all day whether the coke and cheese itself is a good analogy--or proper treatment. Maybe our hero should simply take imodium. In any event, it's a good idea to get him healthy and keep him that way.

wsw201 · #13 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 05:50 PM

My first reaction was that it was more of the same old thing. Sort of the Rodney King approach that BE's normally take.

JOwen · #14 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goretorade

What do we do about profs. like Doug Green and Peter Enns from Westminster and John Frame also from RTS Orlando encouraging Kidd in his statements? These men are all professors in established reformed seminaries training future leaders in reformed churches...are the students safe at these schools?

PRTS is the safest alternative. Superior in fact :-)

greenbaggins · #15 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 07:08 PM

I have started to reply to his post here.

Ivanhoe · #16 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

email Kidd or Frame. Ask them what they are really getting at. They are good on responding to emails. That is a lot better form than hypotheticating what ifs.

John Frame is the most awesomest prof I ever had.

dannyhyde · #17 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

email Kidd or Frame. Ask them what they are really getting at. They are good on responding to emails. That is a lot better form than hypotheticating what ifs.

John Frame is the most awesomest prof I ever had.

He was the worst professor I had when he was at Westminster Sem CA.

goretorade · #18 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 08:05 PM

[quote=Spear Dane;303940]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

email Kidd or Frame. Ask them what they are really getting at. They are good on responding to emails. That is a lot better form than hypotheticating what ifs.

Jacob I did email Dr. Kidd about his post. I may wait for his reply before I email Frame.

Ivanhoe · #19 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyhyde

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

email Kidd or Frame. Ask them what they are really getting at. They are good on responding to emails. That is a lot better form than hypotheticating what ifs.

John Frame is the most awesomest prof I ever had.

He was the worst professor I had when he was at Westminster Sem CA.

In three months with Frame (on ethics, apologetis, and philosophy) I learned more about said subjects than I had ever learned previously---and I have read widely and deeply on all three subjects for about 5-6 years now....intensely. Listened to every Greg Bahnsen tape....made liberals run in fear, and on top of all that, Frame still taught me so much, how to reason, how to spot fallacies, and how to let Scripture determine all areas of thought.

I had given up on the value of seminary. Frame restored my hope.

Redaimie · #20 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SEAGOON

Take heart Mary, just remember that none of this is new. There weren't 50 contiguous years in the history of the church when it was not "by schisms rent assunder, by heresies distressed." The Puritans for instance, throughout the 16th and 17th centuries spent the majority of their time persecuted and villified by the majority and eventually ejected en masse from their pulpits in 1662. But as I said, take heart, God always preserves His remnant in every age and even now He has His Seven Thousand in the Reformed Churches.

Also there are blessings in all this. We learn and grow far more in the crucible, and true Christianity tends to spiritually thrive in the valley, not the mountaintop. Personally, being forever on the outside of the ecclesiastical hierarchy does wonders to subdue my cockiness and hubris. I'm bad as it is, but I'd be insufferable if I was ever as popular as say an RTS-Orlando Professor.

Thanks Pastor Webb & welcome to the board.

wsw201 · #21 (**permalink**) 09-07-2007, 11:33 AM

If you haven't had a chance to read Lane's response to Dr. Kidd, I highly recommend it.

Redaimie · #22 (**permalink**) 09-07-2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wsw201

If you haven't had a chance to read Lane's response to Dr. Kidd, I highly recommend it.

It was very good & Dr Kidd's apology in response to at least a portion of what he wrote warmed my heart.

py3ak · #23 (**permalink**) 09-07-2007, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victorbravo

I've been pondering all day whether the coke and cheese itself is a good analogy--or proper treatment. Maybe our hero should simply take imodium. In any event, it's a good idea to get him healthy and keep him that way.

Oh, coke and cheese is just what our kung fu hero needs. It's a winning combination.