This has probably been discussed before somewhere, but I was just thinking about it...

The fam and I went and saw Star Trek today, and it was the first time I'd been to the theater since Prince Caspian came out. I was really surprised (or rather, not surprised, but horrified) at how inappropriate most of the trailers are nowadays. I know the movie was PG-13, and they raise the "standards" on the previews, but still!

And the movie itself was great, but it still had some unnecessary things in it. I just wonder how long we as Christians should be watching most modern movies. You'd be hard-pressed to find a recent, decent movie that's actually enjoyable, IMHO. I'm a big "eye candy" person; I like action and cool FX, but it's hard to find a clean one (not to mention one I haven't seem too many times). It's hard for me not to want to raise the bar, with thoughts or "That movie looks cool, and I'll just ignore the bad stuff." or something along those lines. When a movie looks really good to me, it's difficult not to want to somehow and somewhat justify the junk by saying "It has a good storyline." So where shall we set the standard? I know there's some passages in the Bible, such as Philippians 4:8, that show what is good to think of (or keep in our minds or watch).

.....

-----Added 5/24/2009 at 02:20:37 EST-----

I just realized there was another thread for this.... Sorry

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Breanna
WPC
USA

"Who am I, that the Lord of all the Earth would care to know my name, would care to feel my hurt? Who am I, that the Bright and Morning Star would choose to light the way for my ever wandering heart?" Who am I, Casting Crowns

The last movie I saw that kept my conscience in tact was Bolt. It was the first time in a long while that I was able to enjoy a movie without having to worry about questionable material. I haven't been able to watch many movies lately due to unnecessary content and scenes.

I don't necessarily think watching movies with questionable scenes (e.g., Star Trek) should be strictly forbidden. I think Christian liberty and discernment applies here. I just don't know where I'd draw the line.

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Joel Lee
Redeemer Hoboken Church (attending)
Hoboken, NJ

Personally, the way I see it is that "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." (1 Cor 5:6)

I cannot understand how one can view sin depicted on a large screen for the sake of entertainment, and not cry out with the Psalmist, "Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law." (119:136)

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Dave
Attendee Chilliwack Heritage Reformed
Abbotsford, Canadia

"God does not love us the way we are! God loves us so that we can become what He wants us to be." - George Grant

I disagree. Every movie depicts some sort of sin. The protagonist often makes a mistake of some sort which leads to the major conflict of the story. Depicting sin is not the problem--it's how the depiction of the sin affects your heart. If the main character in a film shoots up heroin, is it sinful to watch? I don't think so. If the scene tempts you to go and do the same, then by all means you shouldn't be watching it. But I would view such a character in a negative light...and examples of people making poor choices can be beneficial in some regard.

If talking about sheer entertainment, again, it depends upon how the depicted sin affects your heart (and it's NOT the same for everyone). If watching Ocean's Eleven darkens your heart and tempts you to rob casinos, then I'd advise you not watch it. I, on the other hand, enjoy a good heist movie.

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Daniel
PCA
Memphis, TN

God reads hearts and knows our motives better than we do ourselves!

The interesting part is just how much viewing of worldly sin can we rationalize so that we allow ourself to keep up with the culture.

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Nancy L./ www.foundersbaptist.org
Spring, TX

Your will, Lord Jesus Christ! Nothing more... nothing less... nothing else.

I've never seen the movie, so I'm just going by what mention, but couldn't it be dangerous to enjoy a movie which has you rooting for the "bad guys"?

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Alex
Member of Carmel Baptist Church (SBC)
Matthews, NC

Dangerous how?

This, I think is where I draw the line.

Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!


For example, if someone made a movie about the life of David, including his adultery (and, of course, it did not contain explicit content!), that would be fine, as long as it was painted in it's Biblical light, being shown to be evil, recognizing the consequences, etc.

Movies like "Oceans 11", are dangerous, because they make you think of the bad guys, who are doing wicked things, as the good guys. You cheer for them. That, I think is dangerous.

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Damon Rambo
Southern Baptist Convention
Member of Brazosport Baptist Temple, South Texas
Youth Pastor/Evangelist

Straight Walk Ministries is my home.

How is it dangerous?

How much should we tolerate? In our house, taking the Lord's name in vain is enough to throw away the film. Why would I want to pay people to blaspheme the name of our Lord, and then call it entertainment?!?!?!?

As for violence, that (for some reason I can't really put into words, or, for that matter, defend) I find easier to handle. Intimate scenes are another one that puts the movie in the trash.

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Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

Scripture tells us to dwell on positive, Godly things:

Php 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

God told us this, because He knows us: He designed our bodies. As you watch movies, listen to music, etc., neural circuits in your brain are being altered. This changes the way you think.

So when you watch Movies or television programs, that glorify evil, these pathways in your brain become "easier" to think, and your conscience becomes "seared".

That is why it's dangerous.

Another way to put it: If it is wicked to go out of one's way to watch one sin depicted (like adultery, or taking the Name of the Lord in vain), why would it not be sin to go out of one's way to watch any of the others?

There it is. It never takes long for someone to throw out Philippians 4:8, an often misused verse.

It's an interesting explanation. Not one that I buy, but interesting. If we're talking about a movie that truly glorifies evil, I can see it being dangerous. I'm just not buying that a movie like Oceans Eleven glorifies evil. Maybe I'm just in denial.

I've probably seen Ocean's Eleven 3 or 4 times. I'm pretty certain that my conscience has not been seared regarding theft. Theft is theft--it's wrong. Knowing something to be sinful does not mean that I can't be interested in how such an elaborate heist is pulled off.

Have you read any accounts of some of history's biggest heists? If so, do the stories fascinate you at all? Is the only appropriate response to shake your head and think, "my, how evil"? Whether factual or fictional, an elaborate heist is an entertaining story, and in my opinion, not a dangerous story to hear.

When a movie--or book, or whatever--portrays evil as being "good", that is going to affect your concept of sin, and not in a good way. It will take different amounts of exposure for different people, but eventually you will find that you are subconsciously adapting to the moral system of the movies you watch and the books you read. Like I said, it need not happen from watching a single movie. But if that's the kind of movies you watch/books you read regularly, it's going to have an effect eventually.

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Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

Good points. I'm not arguing that it's safe to watch whatever you want. I agree that we need to be careful what we watch, as the messages we receive can have an affect. Where I would probably disagree is at what point a movie is portraying evil as good. I don't think Oceans Eleven is doing that. There is A LOT about the main characters' lives that I want no part of--I don't consider it glorious. Do they get away with crime? Of course, and it's fascinating to see how they do it. That still doesn't mean evil is portrayed as good.

-----Added 5/26/2009 at 11:37:55 EST-----

I assume all of you would say its dangerous to read stories about Robin Hood or watch any of the films, correct?

Rather than blatant denouncement, is this not another thread where a critical, Biblical worldview is useful?

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David
PCA
Bartlett, TN

Who am I, O Lord God, and what is my house,
that you have brought me thus far?
2 Samuel 7:18

I have been dealing with this problem for a long time now, and after much fighting with myself I came to the concussion that I would just stop watching movies altogether, I found that I can use the time for much more meaningful things. (The only exception I have had to make, is in a few weeks when my little sister wants to go see, UP for her birthday.)

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Joshua
Student, Summer Intern
Fellowship Baptist
Ontario, Canada

Well someone said,

Don't watch anything that you wouldn't be comfortable watching if Christ were present.

I usually use this rule,

Can I praise God with a clear conscience for this TV program/other content I'm about to watch/listen to?

If I was to say "thanks God for this film full of filthy talking, blasphemies and impure images." that would be a disgusting sin of me.

However, something moderate perhaps a swear word here instead of every second sentence and no scenes that could en flame lust nor any scene that makes fun of God / holds him without reverence. I think for that, I could praise God for the humor and the content. - Though these days it is hard to find such a film.

Dunno if you know them in the US, but "Only Fools and Horses" or "Fawlty Towers" are 2 good comedy series though they are no longer produced. They have pretty much 0 swearing in them so I can enjoy them quite clear in my conscience.

Though watching "Family Guy" or such which often creates songs / scenes to ridicule Jesus or God I decided to give up on.


"I will set no wicked thing before my eyes, I hate the work of them that turn aside it shall not cleave unto me"

"I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?"


as for people saying "well it doesn't really effect me or change my view of sin" well take care friends, theres been "Christians" who said they're so holy they can watch pornography because they've reached a level in their life where it "doesn't affect them" so it's acceptable for them. That's not really justification for watching a tv program.

Our hearts are great at making up ideas to justify our sins. I'm not referring to you guys saying that. I'm just making a general statement.

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Lee Johnston
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Paisley, Scotland
Ephesians 1:4-5
"In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

Lee, I LOVE Fawlty Towers. I have the series on DVD!

:P

great aint it

There are some good quality movies out there, opinion only here to support that assertion-

(e.g.Hunt for Red October, The Waterhorse, Martin Luther(1953 version), Rick Steve's Travel Europe).

But, there are very few and one must be discerning. I'm less-and-less comfortable going to movies and then explaining to others later... "It was good except for their repeatedly taking the Lord's Name in vane, etc." Recently, we got free movie passes and after spending more than an hour going over a large selection of titles, could not find even one that was edifying (let alone interesting). It was unpleasant and even appalling reviewing the pop culture fare being merchandised to our people.

The vast majority of movies being turned out by major movie studios today is either filthy, asinine or so mocking it is not funny. It's as if the producers delight in slipping in cursing of God, immorality, and cruelty, even when it has nothing to do with the plot or story line.

It would be easy to say, just never watch a movie. But the view I have to take, and think this more comports with Scripture is that good movies can be found and enjoyed, and Christians are free to produce them. It's like going into a chain Christian bookstore- 90% is junk, fluff or manipulation but the 10% makes it worth it!

God gave us a good gift in movies, photography and cinema and he gave people a creativity to produce them. But the fall has marred much, but not all of them. Man may arrogantly promote his total ruin of these gifts in the deceit that it is something good.

In the end, however, what God did in giving this to us is good.

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

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Donald Jacobs
Roanoke VA.
Covenant Reformed Episcopal Church.

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

Sorry I came back to the discussion so late. I can see that you and others
have been talking about it some more and I think most of the points have
been touched on.

Hope I wasn't sounding accusatory because as I noted above, I've never
seen the movie, so I can't say how thieves are portrayed. But i've certainly
seen it in other movies where they portray evil as good and good as evil.

As a teen, I had a lot of favorite movies (well, maybe not a lot) that had swearing in them, like MyCousinVinny and Planes,Trains,and Automobiles. I would just laugh and giggle at them, because they truly are funny movies. But, the language at times was terrible, it made certain scenes funny, but it was wrong. Since getting married and growing a bit more in the Lord, I've watched these movies and found myself becoming uncomfortable. My desire has changed greatly towards watching a movie where I know the language will be bad. Even though it might be funny or exciting, I know that listening to the swearing penetrates my mind and becomes a part of me. Not a good thing!
My dad used to have a sweatshirt that said (in Latin) 'Garbage in, garbage out' I guess what I'm trying to say is that, what we allow in is eventually going to come out. So we all need to be cautious about the influences that we come in contact with. Just my

P.S.
When a Victoria's Secret commercial comes on, I cover my husband's eyes. I guess I don't like the competition j/k

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Sarah Barnette
non-denominational, but hoping to change soon to PCA
Toronto, Ohio

My wife and I look at the overall point of the film (or TV show) rather than certain objectionable content within the film. For example, one of my favorite recent movies is Gran Torino, with Clint Eastwood. Now, the movie is filled with profanity and racial slurs, but anyone who has seen the film knows its moral is anything but racist, and Eastwood's character is simply a mean guy with a bad mouth - he's not to be praised so much as pitied.

I could have avoided the film because of the language, but I hear as bad or worse walking down the streets of Manhattan going to the theater. Should I missed out on a moving film simply because the language is what I hear on the street every single day? I didn't pay to hear the language, I paid to see a great movie with a touching story - the language was incidental.

The same applies to any other objectionable content, IMO. This where conscience and Christian liberty come into play in many cases. Should we not read Hamlet because of the violence and sexual innuendo? Or Crime and Punishment because it features an ax murder and a prostitute? Or C.S. Lewis' Till We Have Faces because of the fornication (not explicit) and violence? We would be missing out on a lot of God-given talent and edifying art if we skipped on everything with an iota of objectionable content. I don't know that there's an absolute place where we draw the line - I suppose it's up to the individual to decide.

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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

I think it's a matter of knowing yourself and your own temptations. One needs to know that if watching a movie is going to cause them to sin in any way. I find that I'm better off watching comedies than dramas.

Drama-type films tend to make me mad and lose my temper at all the propoganda whereas with a comedy I can laugh and relax. I really need to work on my nasty temper, so I stay away from films with themes that make me rant. There are some dramas that I like, but I really like comedies. I take life so seriously that I need to laugh. I also like suspense thrillers because I like the bad guy getting what he deserves in the end.

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Toni Cunningham, Wife of Bill (Theognome)
Parkwoods OPC, Overland Park KS

"Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, As, to be hated, needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace." ~ Alexander Pope

I am greatly concerned about what media (TV, movies, video games, best-seller books) show our kids as normative. Men, and really tough women, use profanity by the bucketful. Women wear slinky form-fitting clothing. Violence is entertainment. God is a cuss-word. Religion is for the dweebs and back-woods idiots.

We have very much limited what we will watch. An R rating, and even some PG-13 ratings are an instant deal breaker (even for the adults in the family). And so much of what is made for "family" entertainment is insultingly stupid. (OK, I'll stop now.)

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/

When I view a movie, I assume it is going to propagate some worldly point of view. I can usually peg it, discuss it( and sometimes go off on a satirical rant) and move on. However, some stuff is just an attempt to pump pornography into our homes...and then it gets shut down.

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

I used to and still do (but not nearly as often) watch a lot of independent and art films, mostly of the European kind, and in those films, the filmmakers definitely take liberty with nudity and other things that could cause a person to sin. There is definitely a negative aspect to this, because it is often to avoid lusting or whatever sin is caused by the content on the screen; it takes I think a good bit of self-control and in many films, it is better to not even watch them. But there is not only the negative; I also find that these films are generally greater in quality, in terms of the aesthetic experience, the talent of the filmmaker, the philosophical/intellectual level of interest the film has for me and the intellectual stimulation to be got out of watching it, and so on. Francis Schaeffer was no doubt familiar with many of the most popular films in the art scene during his time, and I've read in his books him commenting on even some of my favorites. I also find that these films also provide a real good look into what consistently follows from an atheistic worldview (because many of the artsy guys are either agnostic or apathetic), as you often find the main characters left alone, in despair, with no hope, and so on.

I suppose it depends on the individual person. If it causes you to sin, you shouldn't watch it. If you can keep yourself from sinning, there is much good to be had in enjoying a quality film.

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Steven Nemes
Phoenix, AZ

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered - C.S. Lewis

Mason makes some good points here - though I haven't seen Gran Torino. But I think you could make a similar point with Changeling. There is a scene in that movie it would be nice to perpetually forget. But while the horror there may be too much for some (and I mean no disrespect by that; some people are more sensitive to certain things than others), I am not sorry I saw it, any more than I'm sorry that I read reports about a man who killed his wife and son, or about a German cannibal. While we need to be careful about tolerating moral ugliness on the grounds that it's "authentic" or "artistic" or "profound" or whatever (because we have an appetite for certain kinds of moral ugliness already, and because new appetites can be cultivated), we also need to remember that telling a tale that involves moral ugliness is not necessarily a morally ugly thing to do.

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Ruben
Moderator
F.P.C.I.
Indiana

Vanities and disguises have covered us, and thereby we are naked; licenciousness hath inflam'd us, and thereby we are frozen; voluptuousness hath fed us, and thereby we are sterved, the fancies and traditions of men have taught and instructed us, and thereby we are ignorant.
John Donne

Board Rules - Signature Requirements - Suggestions?

Calvinistas Conversando
Teología en Mexico
The Howling Wilderness

Agreed, brother, as long as it is profitable to the hearer. Is a movie like that really profitable to the viewer? Where does the motivation, the appetite, for such a thing come from? I just can't understand it.

I agree. For instance, I could watch movies about robbery and theft all day. I've never had the unction to steal. It's just never been one of my weaknesses. On the other hand, if the movie was about... well... something else, OK? LOL In other words, I agree that knowing yourself and your own temptations has a lot to do with what type of movie you should watch.

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Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

I'm not sure what movie you're talking about, Kevin. Appetites for moral ugliness come from our depravity. We appear to be constructed with an appetite for stories that have meaning, and an enjoyment of picking up facts. Stories that are profound often have moral ugliness as a factor in them.