Originally Posted by LawrenceU

These are movies in which the writer was explicitly slamming Biblical values. I think that we often want to view such movies through lenses that are refracted according to our flesh and in so doing we commit theatrical eisegesis.

I'm sure that's true: and yet there are also times (I think again of The Golden Compass) where an attempt to slam Biblical values simply fails: where the fact that they are using borrowed capital means they undermine their own message. There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip, not least in artistic endeavor.

Originally Posted by austinww

Originally Posted by Mindaboo

How do we know it's meant to be evangelistic? From the trailer it looks like it might be convicting to believers about being more diligent fathers. Yes, the trailer was cheesy. I probably will never see this movie (busy engineering student without a TV), but it could be fine.

What? I was going to invite you and Andrew over when it came out on DVD. Oh well! Guess I'll watch it alone.

If y'all want to kidnap me on winter break and make Andrew pay for the travel, I'll watch just about any Christian movie that doesn't have a rapture in it.

Actually since the two of us live in Texas, it would only be fair that Mindy traveled here. I would even splurge and buy her a happy meal.

Originally Posted by Andres

Originally Posted by austinww

Originally Posted by Mindaboo

How do we know it's meant to be evangelistic? From the trailer it looks like it might be convicting to believers about being more diligent fathers. Yes, the trailer was cheesy. I probably will never see this movie (busy engineering student without a TV), but it could be fine.

What? I was going to invite you and Andrew over when it came out on DVD. Oh well! Guess I'll watch it alone.

If y'all want to kidnap me on winter break and make Andrew pay for the travel, I'll watch just about any Christian movie that doesn't have a rapture in it.

Actually since the two of us live in Texas, it would only be fair that Mindy traveled here. I would even splurge and buy her a happy meal.

No, she has greater numbers, unless you were planning on leaving out Brad and the kids. But then who would play stringed instruments in the background while we're all at each other's throats in theological debate?

Actually since the two of us live in Texas, it would only be fair that Mindy traveled here. I would even splurge and buy her a happy meal.

Make it a Chick-fil-A kid's meal, and I'm out the door. I have your address, Andrew. I don't travel alone. I have my own little set of "groupies" that follow me everywhere. They would love to watch the Disney Channel with you.

---------- Post added at 03:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 PM ----------

No, she has greater numbers, unless you were planning on leaving out Brad and the kids. But then who would play stringed instruments in the background while we're at each other's throats in theological debate?

And believe me they are far more entertaining.

Originally Posted by Mindaboo

Seriously? You watch the Disney channel. I don't know what to think of this. I am shocked. Does Jenny know? Or is this going to end up like the Lucky Charms confession?

Yes, I watch Disney. I watch Suite Life on Deck, Good Luck Charlie, and Wizards of Waverly Place. Yes, Jenny knows and she makes fun of me. She thinks those shows are all stupid and she's probably right.

---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

Originally Posted by austinww

No, she has greater numbers, unless you were planning on leaving out Brad and the kids. But then who would play stringed instruments in the background while we're all at each other's throats in theological debate?

Great point. I was only counting her since she was the one who brought it up. Mindy already knows her and Brad (and anyone else they want to bring) have a standing invitation at my house. I have their own bedrooom and bathroom waiting for them. The only thing I ask is for a few hours notice so that I can hang up all my Dallas Cowboys posters in the guest bedroom to make Mindy feel extra welcome.

Originally Posted by Andres

Originally Posted by Mindaboo

Seriously? You watch the Disney channel. I don't know what to think of this. I am shocked. Does Jenny know? Or is this going to end up like the Lucky Charms confession?

Yes, I watch Disney. I watch Suite Life on Deck, Good Luck Charlie, and Wizards of Waverly Place. Yes, Jenny knows and she makes fun of me. She thinks those shows are all stupid and she's probably right.

I was about to say shame on you, but then I remembered I like Phineas and Ferb.

Originally Posted by austinww

Originally Posted by Andres

Originally Posted by Mindaboo

Seriously? You watch the Disney channel. I don't know what to think of this. I am shocked. Does Jenny know? Or is this going to end up like the Lucky Charms confession?

Yes, I watch Disney. I watch Suite Life on Deck, Good Luck Charlie, and Wizards of Waverly Place. Yes, Jenny knows and she makes fun of me. She thinks those shows are all stupid and she's probably right.

I was about to say shame on you, but then I remembered I like Phineas and Ferb.

You know, my brother-in-law actually mentioned Phineas and Ferb the other day. He said it was the funniest cartoon on tv. I've never watched it but perhaps I might give it a try sometime.

Originally Posted by Andres

Originally Posted by austinww

Originally Posted by Andres

Originally Posted by Mindaboo

Seriously? You watch the Disney channel. I don't know what to think of this. I am shocked. Does Jenny know? Or is this going to end up like the Lucky Charms confession?

Yes, I watch Disney. I watch Suite Life on Deck, Good Luck Charlie, and Wizards of Waverly Place. Yes, Jenny knows and she makes fun of me. She thinks those shows are all stupid and she's probably right.

I was about to say shame on you, but then I remembered I like Phineas and Ferb.

You know, my brother-in-law actually mentioned Phineas and Ferb the other day. He said it was the funniest cartoon on tv. I've never watched it but perhaps I might give it a try sometime.

It's got an undercover pet platypus, great musical numbers, and a creatively repetitive plot. Definitely better than much of what's on TV.

Great point. I was only counting her since she was the one who brought it up. Mindy already knows her and Brad (and anyone else they want to bring) have a standing invitation at my house. I have their own bedrooom and bathroom waiting for them. The only thing I ask is for a few hours notice so that I can hang up all my Dallas Cowboys posters in the guest bedroom to make Mindy feel extra welcome.

Thanks, Andrew. That would make me feel very welcome.

Wizards of Waverly Place I understand, but Suite Life? Andres, please change your ways.

Originally Posted by py3ak

Wizards of Waverly Place I understand, but Suite Life? Andres, please change your ways.

Sir,yessir! (Besides the series is over now )

Originally Posted by Joshua

Cantrapicksatious filithers did not stumple such jabulars.

Sure, but that's what a corkscrew is for.

I just read rbcbob's wife Ginger really liked it! If she likes it, it's good!

Originally Posted by MarieP

I just read rbcbob's wife Ginger really liked it! If she likes it, it's good!

Not only did the missus like it (to put it mildly) but so did I. Ok, go ahead and shoot me.

Actually I found the acting and directing to be excellent. Fireproof was, despite the use of non-professional actors, very realistic to life experience. Courageous is much better and deals with an issue which Americans (Christian or otherwise) desperately need to be confronted on.

I have the same issue with the movie that i do with "Christian fiction": quality. And forced happy endings which imply that anyone who does not get a "Yes" when asking God to heal any number of fatal or debilitating illnesses or the new favorite: infertility must be a big sinner since God gives "the nice people" a happy ending. And the happy ending does not always come (Narnia, Harry Potter or LOTR are fun: they are in a fantasy world that is not real but they tell a story. These films and books present a false and dangerous notion that being a Christian means life will be happy all the time. Calvin, Luther and Spurgeon would weep at this illogic. Yes Ben I am a cynic.

The only Christian movie I have been really trully moved by is the movie Amazing Grace about william wilberforce and the slave trade. I cried, I don't cry at too many movies folks. make movies like this with a good christian message and I will watch with pride.

---------- Post added at 02:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 AM ----------

Originally Posted by austinww

Originally Posted by Andres

Originally Posted by Mindaboo

Seriously? You watch the Disney channel. I don't know what to think of this. I am shocked. Does Jenny know? Or is this going to end up like the Lucky Charms confession?

Yes, I watch Disney. I watch Suite Life on Deck, Good Luck Charlie, and Wizards of Waverly Place. Yes, Jenny knows and she makes fun of me. She thinks those shows are all stupid and she's probably right.

I was about to say shame on you, but then I remembered I like Phineas and Ferb.

Phineas and ferb=epic

Phineas and Ferb is one of the best shows of the past decade.

Amazing Grace was great.

Has anyone else here seen the film? I saw it last night. I thought it had good production values, but moreover, it was a solid Christian film that a whole family could watch and not cringe that something may be inappropriate.

WHITE HORSE INN has posted a (negative) review at

Courageous Christianity? - White Horse Inn Blog


The reviewer has been largely taken to task for his panning of the movie.

I want to see it. Sadly, it looks like I have to drive all the way to Manchester for a theatre that's playing it.

The thing that struck me about the movie is the deputy (those who have seen the movie should know who). For an Arminian Baptist production, I am sure it was unintentional, but it shows that a commitment out of emotion or peer pressure is worthless. Then the movie ends with such an appeal and "commitments."

Originally Posted by rbcbob

WHITE HORSE INN has posted a (negative) review at

Courageous Christianity? - White Horse Inn Blog


The reviewer has been largely taken to task for his panning of the movie.

The comments below it are worth reading. As you say, the reviewer was taken to task.

I still haven't seen Courageous, but virtually everyone I've talked to highly suggests it.

---------- Post added at 10:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------

And I'll add that it's really annoying to me that certain groups wax on about how God can even use weak presentations of the Gospel to save sinners, and yet when this movie comes out and presents the Gospel, people from the same groups nit-pick and find every flaw rather than celebrating the fact that THERE IS A MOVIE IN THE THEATERS THAT PRESENTS THE GOSPEL. Considering the trend of our culture and its slouching towards Sodom, this is reason to praise God and ask that He would use it for His name's sake.

I am going to wait until Luther, Bucer, Calvin, Knox, Rutherford, and Spurgeon collaborate on a movie project so that I will have nothing with which to disagree and everything with which to show all my unsaved sinner neighbours so that there will be no chance that any of them ever might misunderstand the Gospel in any fashion thereby leading to a Reformed Perfectionistic ethos at all times everywhere.

Oh, wait, even those great men couldn't make such a movie, they all disagree in certain areas. Ah well, I'll just continue to hope.

Goodness, it boggles my mind how I hear 'Reformed' people say that they can show people the Gospel clearly in U2 music, Harry Potter movies and books, Tolkien novels, and even AC/DC songs; yet they will attempt to blast a movie like this for not getting it right.

Originally Posted by LawrenceU

Goodness, it boggles my mind how I hear 'Reformed' people say that they can show people the Gospel clearly in U2 music, Harry Potter movies and books, Tolkien novels, and even AC/DC songs; yet they will attempt to blast a movie like this for not getting it right.

Well said!

Originally Posted by LawrenceU

Goodness, it boggles my mind how I hear 'Reformed' people say that they can show people the Gospel clearly in U2 music, Harry Potter movies and books, Tolkien novels, and even AC/DC songs; yet they will attempt to blast a movie like this for not getting it right.

Yes... and I can agree with the spirit of that remark. There's a lot of godless stuff elevated by believers ahead of what is essentially godly.

But would you make a distinction between a secular film which may contain echoes of the gospel and a church-made film that's more straightforward and actually mentions Christ and the cross? Do they have different responsibilities to live up to?

I'm not one to say I see the gospel in Tolkien. If it doesn't have Jesus, it isn't the gospel. But there are some themes in Tolkien that fit and support the gospel, and that is admirable for what it is.

Now suppose there's a movie that does talk about Jesus and plainly claims faith in him as the key to salvation. But it describes that faith as mostly about trying harder to be a good person and using God to get a better life for yourself. Wouldn't that movie be less than admirable, because it failed in what it was claiming to be and failed to handle the gospel properly?

I haven't seen Courageous. I won't comment on whether or not reviews that say that particular film misrepresents the gospel are accurate. But when a movie claims to present the gospel, I do hold it to a higher standard in terms of getting it right.

Originally Posted by Jack K

But when a movie claims to present the gospel, I do hold it to a higher standard in terms of getting it right.

This is a good point. Thank you, Jack.

I'm not against Courageous. I hope it does well and I would love it if people came to Christ as a result of it.

I found the review on WHI to be helpful, and I didn't get the impression that the reviewer was out to get the film. He expressed his concerns and dislikes, and they are valid. I think everyone would agree that the filmmakers have their hearts in the right place and are to be commended for making a family-friendly, gospel-oriented film.

I'm just not interested in the film myself. From what I can tell in what I have read, it has similarities to Facing the Giants...which is a movie I disliked. I generally don't like movies that shoot for reality yet miss the mark. I'd be much more interested if the movie showed that life isn't always peachy for the committed Christians.

I guess when it comes to movies, we're stepping on people's toes when it comes to preferences. My wfie can't stand the movie No Country for Old Men and never lets me watch it. I don't think 99% of people that watch that movie would draw out of it what I saw but I saw a picture of "Life Under the Sun" from Ecclesiastes. There were no gimmicks. It was just a very well told story that immersed you in the plot so that it felt like you were dealing with real life.

Contrast that to Facing the Giants where the cheese factor was so high that I told Sonya: "That kid David is going to do something big" and "Hey, I'll bet his Dad is going to stand in the endzone." It was clean. It had a positive message. But it was just so corny and I got in a lot of trouble with some here on the PB when I pointed out how bad I thought the movie was. It was sort of like the 60's Marvel TV cartoons that spoke out thought bubbles (See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0IFPEcRh74).

The movies made by this Church are essentially extended parables and, as such, are extended metaphors. In that they're trying to get a message across that is generally positive I have to applaud their efforts. I've just never found any of their movies terribly compelling. They have a soap opera feel to them that's not for me. If they're for somebody else then I won't quibble over whether it works for them.

I know that, at the end of the day, even my talking this whole thing out and letting people know what I think will be so much: "You Reformed guys are so negative." Hey, it's an opinion. You don't have to agree with me. You don't have to agree with the reviewer. I'm telling you why I, Rich, don't care for these movies. As the extended analogies go, the main point isn't completely bad but the presentation of it makes it hard for me to see it as real life and so it comes across as a caricature that I would never find myself within. Maybe I'm a bit too cynical after being a Marine for 21 years .

Having already sunk myself in the estimation of many who might read this, I do agree with something I read out of David Tripp's Instruments in the Redeemer's Hands. He spends some time in Chapter 2 talking about the fact that psychological methods tend to group people into categories, systems, and helps but that the Christian message offers real hope because it reaches people where they really are. He goes on to caution against using Scripture in a formulaic way and turning it into just another system that can fix the presenting problems of life. I think he's right and I think these movies tend to use Scripture in a fashion that might speak to a presenting problem but then leaves the watcher thinking that the Scriptures are primarily an encyclopedia of human problems with the corresponding solutions to the catalog of human issues.

Originally Posted by J. Dean

Instead of making "Christian" art, we need Christians making art. We need people making art, be it music, movies, painting, literature, etc., with a Christian influence, instead of simply trying to take a sermon point and fitting a movie plot around it.

I point to C.S. Lewis on this matter. Lewis wrote stories that were good because they were good stories. Yes, there is certainly Christian influence on the stories, but Lewis' primary point was not to hit the reader over the head with a sermon and then throw little plotlines here and there into the books. What he did was first craft a good story, and then weave nuanced theology into the work. Big difference between the two.

To be honest, entertainment is a poor venue for straight theology, simply because entertainment is not meant to engage the mind in a meaningful way. At best, it engages the emotions and elicits temporary responses. At worst, it loses the message in the tumult of the medium. With all due respect to people who make movies like Courageous, Fireproof, and Facing the Giants, wrapping theology in a thin packaging of entertainment only brings about a mediocre product which garners an audience of people who already know the intended message, while the world simply scoffs as us, and does so for the wrong reasons.

We need Miltons. We need Lewises. We need Christians who create art for the sake of art, who enhance that art with good theology, rather than turn out terrible art because they're so concerned with the theology that they sacrifice the artistic vehicle in which that point is delivered. If you're going to communicate Christianity through art, you need to place importance on the art; otherwise you lose a good message in a shoddy product.

Johnny Cash said that we wasn't a Christian musician but a Christian that was a musician. Some of the songs released later in his life are very very deep spiritually speaking and are great songs in terms of musical talent, etc.

Goodness, it boggles my mind how I hear 'Reformed' people say that they can show people the Gospel clearly in U2 music, Harry Potter movies and books, Tolkien novels, and even AC/DC songs; yet they will attempt to blast a movie like this for not getting it right.

I'd watch a movie produced by Lutherans, Arminians, or anybody else really if it was decent.

Rich,
I appreciate what you are saying and in some ways agree with you. I am not a fan of sappy movies. I just am boggled when I see people attribute righteous qualities to overtly pagan or subtly pagan media. I think there is often more there than meets the eye.

Jack, I understand the point at which you are driving; and to a point agree. Yes, if one is openly attempting to share the Gospel one should attempt to get it right. That is not my beef in my comments. My point is the inconsistency in the consideration of authorial intent and the incongruity of analysis.

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

My wfie can't stand the movie No Country for Old Men and never lets me watch it.

I rented the DVD and waited until my wife went to bed to watch it. It's a great film although I can understand how a woman wouldn't enjoy it.

How about Davey and Goliath? The theme song is eerily familiar.

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

I guess when it comes to movies, we're stepping on people's toes when it comes to preferences. My wfie can't stand the movie No Country for Old Men and never lets me watch it. I don't think 99% of people that watch that movie would draw out of it what I saw but I saw a picture of "Life Under the Sun" from Ecclesiastes. There were no gimmicks. It was just a very well told story that immersed you in the plot so that it felt like you were dealing with real life.

No Country for Old Men is probably my all-time favorite movie. I would even go so far as to say it's nearly a flawless film. Love, love, love it.

Originally Posted by rbcbob

WHITE HORSE INN has posted a (negative) review at

Courageous Christianity? - White Horse Inn Blog


The reviewer has been largely taken to task for his panning of the movie.

Seems to me the reviewer has issues concerning the Law-Gospel distinction. He appears to be more Lutheran than Reformed. It's one thing to rightly demand that indicatives precede imperatives. It's another to separate them as though they were mortal enemies. Apparently he had the same problem with Sherwood's other movies, which I saw and thought were great!

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I plan to soon!

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

Originally Posted by LawrenceU

Goodness, it boggles my mind how I hear 'Reformed' people say that they can show people the Gospel clearly in U2 music, Harry Potter movies and books, Tolkien novels, and even AC/DC songs; yet they will attempt to blast a movie like this for not getting it right.

Well said!

Amen, Lawrence! I'm beyond tired of hearing about how great Bono is, and how wonderful Harry Potter is.

It is nice to be able have a movie to take my kids to and not wince all the time.