I thought it would be more appropriate to post a new thread than to introduce this comment in the discussion on Calvinism and the gospel.

In my own personal experience I was a student at Tennessee Temple University (the home of Reformed theology - NOT) when I first began seeing the Doctrines of Grace. And for some time I was simply paralyzed when it came to evangelism. I was afraid of saying the wrong thing - or manipulating someone into coming to Jesus.

After some time, I must confess, the zeal I had for sharing my faith and evangelism weakened. Calvinism did not do this, but my own spiritual pride. What I find interesting is that typically when someone, usually an Arminian, charges Calvinists as being cold to evangelism we immediately jump to our "heros of the past." Examples:

"Charles Spurgeon was one of the greatest soul winners in the church."
"The SBC and their missions movement was founded by Calvinists."
"Edwards' Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God was preached by a Calvinist."
"George Whitefield preached the gospel to thousands in the open air"

But rarely do we hear, "Brother, why don't you come visit our Thursday evening outreach." Or, "Let me introduce you to Mike. He's my neighbor that I led to the Lord."

I'd love to hear your testimonials of how the Lord has used you!

__________________
Brian Dempsey, Pastor
Christ Reformed Church
www.christreformedchurch.org
Grace Online Library
www.graceonlinelibrary.org

"Knowledge without repentance will be but a torch to guide men to hell." - Thomas Watson

I think it's impossible to say certainly when I've ever led someone to Christ. Only the end of time can show that. I would like to think that each time I have family worship with my daughter, that I'm leading her to Christ. I would like to think that in all the conversations that I have in which the gospel arises, that I'm "planting a seed" (so to speak) which God can use for drawing or hardening, as He sees fit.

I do think that Revivalism has put guilt trips on the individual for not going out and "knockin' on doors," doing "personal evangelism," etc. in a mechanical fashion, when what we should be doing is loving the Church (i.e. holistically and the individuals therein), obeying Christ's commands, and attending the means of grace. By doing these things, we are also preparing ourselves to answer objections which oppose the gospel, to impart kindness to our neighbors, and be salt and light in such a way that opens opportunities to proclaim God's goodness to us, and invite the lost to sit under the ministry of the Word.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
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My experience is exactly the opposite. I have more zeal for the Gospel now that I know what it is and Who converts the heart. For the past several years I have been either involved in catechizing adults and children and, for the past 3 years, helping to get a Baptist Church back on its feet with teaching that actually reflects the true Gospel.

I don't hesitate to invite people to our Church and the people are very happy to hear a Gospel that reflects the surety of a Promise that cannot fail.

__________________
Rich
Northern VA
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Well said. For many ex-Arminians there is the risk of over-compensating for previously skewed soteriology. I completely understand Josh's comments. He's right. I also understand Rich's comments. He's right too. With the blinders lifted off we can finally see the gospel in truth. We can proclaim it to the lost and help it grow in the newly converted without obligation. It has become our joy to do so.

I echo Josh's words. I don't know if I have actually led anybody to Christ. I am convinced that God has used me in His divine plan to be part of His calling a sinner to repentance. To be used by God in such fashion is a joy in and of itself. But I recognize I am but a cog. All glory, honor and praise belongs to God who saves by His marvelous grace.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

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When I was a Royal Ranger Commander at a Charismatic Church in Manassas, VA I distinctly remember that boys in the Royal Rangers (the Assemblies of God version of the Boy Scouts) could earn merit badge points for "winning a boy for Jesus."

This view of the Church as a "notch in the belt" attitude toward the Church is completely faulty. People who are not even equipped for the task (i.e. children) are viewed as "missionaries" as if their immature understanding of what the Gospel represents is just fine just as long as the name "Jesus" is being mentioned.

I don't say this with disdain for those that are caught up in this error but for my dislike of the impoverishment of the Gospel that sees it essentially as convincing a man and then giving the evangelist "merit points" for what he did. I also lament the impoverishment of discipleship itself, which has most people "getting saved" and then being perfected by their performance therein.

If truth be told and I was measuring as these faulty standards measure then I could take credit for more than a few souls but I abhor that notion.

The way I see it, there are a lot of Churches with rocky ground and plants with no root whatsoever. The under-shepherds within have no roots either and continue to propagate a shallow view of Christianity and Evangelism that encourages all the other shallow plants to fake real fruit by making more shallow plants just like they. No tilling of the soil or concern about depth or understanding is a requirement.

In fact, Bill Hybels recently lamented that the people who had been at his Church the longest and were most involved complained of feeling impoverished in their Christian walk. His response? He told everybody that the Church needed to help them become "Self Feeders".

Forgive me for going on a rant but I truly do not like the baggage associated with "leading someone to Christ" because it conjures up revivalism, shallow Churches, and all the other things that are so very wrong with Evangelicalism today. I'm not saying that Reformed Churches have no problems but, frankly, many of the problems of Reformed Churches today are due to the importation of revival attitudes into what used to be a rich heritage of Word, Sacrament, and Discipline that would create the fruitful lives that would invite the neighbor into a healthy Church where souls would not only be converted by the preaching of the Word rightly divided but also where men, women, and children could grow in the unity of the faith as is the requirement of the Great Commission.

__________________
Rich
Northern VA
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Rich, I concur. More powerful than any canned personal evangelism message is the preached word of God, the ordinances (sacraments) of the church and the love displayed by the saints towards one another. I would rather fellow believers invite sinners to church where they can see and hear.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

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Without a doubt we cannot know for certain who we have ever truly led to Christ. However the tenor of the scripture is not one of scepticsm where we doubt the profession of people and simply hope for the best. I echo and appreciate your statement regarding leading our little ones to Christ in our homes. My question stems not so much from those things (preaching the gospel in our Jerusaelm), but concerning our zeal and passion to see men, women and children come to Christ (in our Samaria).

We have and know the truth of Christ. We understand that the God of heaven effectually draws men to Christ. We believe that salvation is not dependent on my abilities or power of persuasion.

In light of these things I'm asking how zealous are we to go out and engage our culture for Christ. I see that many in the Reformed camp can be just as "mechanical" - or maybe "wooden" is a better term - when dealing with sinners. Do we weep for those who are lost? Do we share our faith "as a dying man to dying to men." Do we not only stumble upon occassional opportunities to speak for Christ or do we prayfully seek them - that we might be instruments of God in the salvation of sinners?

Yes, amen! The modern Finney Revivalism that has led to the "Evagecube," the Four Spiritual Flaws and the Power Team is not the at all what I'm talking about. And though there is much baggage around the term "personal evangelism" - there is much truth.

I was "led to Christ" as a 16 year old by a young man I worked with at a gas station. I had never been to church in my life. However, for months this young man consistently lived Christ in front of me. He witnessed to me. He shared gospel tracts with me. And one night I read those tracts - with the sinner's prayer and all - and afterward threw it across the room and thought, "What would everybody think if I became a Christian." As far as I was concerned that was it.

But the Spirit of God began to convict me of my sin. I became accutely aware of my own sinfulness and need for Christ. Over the next several weeks God brought me to end of myself. I wanted nothing else but Christ, but I had no idea "what to do to be saved." One evening, in Sept. '87, I went to work under deep conviction of sin. And this young man spoke with me about my soul. He opened up the scriptures and shared with me the love of Christ for sinners. And when I asked, "What do I have to do to become a Christian, " he assured me that "whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." He was no theologian. He was 18 years old.

And yet God used Gary to "lead me to Christ." He came to my house every week, bought me a Bible and began to read the scriptures with me. He invited me to his church where I was baptized. And the Lord used him not only in my conversion, but also to help me in my new walk with Christ.

So this is what I mean by asking the question. I don't ask to put a "guilt trip" on folks for not going to door to door or using modern "evangelistic" methods but to hear how the Lord has used some of you, as the Lord used Gary in my life.

__________________
Brian Dempsey, Pastor
Christ Reformed Church
www.christreformedchurch.org
Grace Online Library
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"Knowledge without repentance will be but a torch to guide men to hell." - Thomas Watson

Brian,

I hear you.

There were many people that God used to bring me to Christ. The result was that the Holy Spirit brought me up short, reveal to me that I was a sinner without hope in this world and that the only way to change my awful condition was to trust in Christ and in Him only. I praise God for the faithful witness of many Christians who shared the Gospel with me. In that whole process I was never brow-beated, push or cajoled. I was persistantly, gentlely and faithful pointed to Christ....and in a Southern Baptist Church no less!

I have strived to be the same kind of faithful witness of Christ in all my years of being a Christian. Where I work is probably a good example. I don't "wear my religion on my sleeve". I do my job the very best I can, always assisting others in what they are doing. I respect people for who they are. I show that I have sense of humor but don't "follow the crowd". For this I am respected and even liked. I have earned my right to speak and I do when given the opportunity. I don't force Christ on anyone. I look for the opportunities to speak for Christ, largely during lunch break with other assistant managers. Even with that I am one of the assistant managers that others seek out to have lunch with.

I have had quite a few opportunities to "lead people" to Christ. And I do. I am but a beggar telling other beggars when they can find the Bread of Life.

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church * Poplar Grove, Illinois USA www.maranatha-sbc.org/
"Mankind is divided into two sorts: such as live according to man, and such as live according to God. These we call the two cities...The Heavenly City outshines Rome. There, instead of victory, is truth" — Augustine of Hippo

Well said Rich, Bill, and Josh.

Certainly, over the years, I can say that many seeds have been planted, and much watering has been done, but only God can give the increase! To attempt to answer the question, as worded: "When is the last time you [i] led someone to Christ?" is impossible.

I once heard someone say it this way: "Everyone I've led to the Lord has backslidden, so now I just faithfully preach the Gospel and leave the results to God."

As Packer, points out in Evangelism & the Sovereignty of God, when we truly grasp the truth that it is not up to us convince the unsaved that we have our greatest freedom in proclaiming the Gospel. I think it was Walter Chantry's little book, Today's Gospel: Authentic or Synthetic? that most helped me grasp this.

Some where in that book Chantry writes about the purpose of evangelism. He asks, "What is the purpose of Evangelism?" He points out that many modern Christians would answer the purpose of evangelism is to lead people to Christ. But Chantry says, "No! The purpose of evangelism is that God would be glorified by the preaching of His Word."

__________________
Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
PCA
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk

Well, of course we should weep for the lost, but moreso we should weep for our sins of failing to obey God. If we let the lost become the objects of our living, then we've lost sight of Him Who alone is worth of our praise. When we set our eyes on obedience to Him and His Law, then these other things happen naturally.

I, for one, do not think that the average Christian layman is to have this unbearable burden of having to go out and individually "share their faith," in the way it is understood these days. Rather, I really appreciated what Ivan so much better articulated than myself when he said:

"I have strived to be the same kind of faithful witness of Christ in all my years of being a Christian. Where I work is probably a good example. I don't "wear my religion on my sleeve". I do my job the very best I can, always assisting others in what they are doing. I respect people for who they are. I show that I have sense of humor but don't "follow the crowd". For this I am respected and even liked. I have earned my right to speak and I do when given the opportunity. I don't force Christ on anyone."

All I'm saying is that if we're daily believing the Gospel, availing ourselves to the means of grace and Christian fellowship, then these opportunities are brought to the layman in their daily life, as opposed to having to feel the need to go out and "knock on doors," etc. I think that the Gospel (proper) is that which should be proclaimed by those whom God has specifically called unto.

This does not mean we don't give an answer for the hope we have within us; but it means we engage the unbeliever in such a manner that defends the faith, but seeks to bring them under the sound preaching of the Gospel by a minister who has been called to do that very thing. I realize that this probably comes across as unthinkable, but I hope that I'm making msyelf clear.

"Evangelism" is the work of a Pastor (Paul to Timothy). Being salt & light is the work of every Christian. When a layman decides to share his faith, that's fine ... but the ultimate goal should be to bring a person under the sound preaching of the Gospel, and discipleship into the local church. I am probably saying things in the wrong manner, but I hope you understand the distinctions I'm *trying* to make.


And I'm not doubting for one moment that God used Gary in this regard. I am thankful that God uses people and things to do this; what I'm saying is that every Christian shouldn't have such a responsibility of burden placed on them to be like Gary. They should do the things that the Bible tells them to do. Love God with all their heart, love the Church, love their neighbors, love their enemies. Be Salt and be Light. But this doesn't equate to "the work of an evangelist."
Right, and I didn't imply (or at least I didn't mean to imply) that you were trying to get people to have guilt trips. I was simply responding to your question with my own qualifications. No offense intended in any way, Sir.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
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Joshua, I hope that I have not come across as attempting to place some "unbearable burden" upon people in regards to evangelism. I'm simply saying that as Christians should have a passion to share our faith and a desire to see people come to Christ.

I preached for 11 years a local Fundamental Independent Baptist (FIB) homeless mission. They had preaching every night of the week. I was the ONLY Calvinist (and didn't use terms, only the scripture). I saw preachers come and go. The would "blow in, blow up and blow out." I tried to get there an hour early every evening - and stayed long after to have a meal with these guys and get to know them. I was able to develop a relationship with these guys over years that allowed me to get to share the gospel - both in preaching and in our personal conversation.

I understand that the "average Christian," to use your term, is not called to a life of "soul winning" (btw, that sound you just heard was the sucking wind of my FIB friends), but we are called to share our faith - to point others to Christ. There is no being "salt and light" outside of the gospel - not just lived in front of sinners but shared - else we are left with little more than morality and civility and the sinner thinking we're just "good folk." Again, Gary was no theologian, but he could testify as the blind man, "I once was blind, but now I see!"

There may have been more wisdom in entitling my question, "When was the last time you had the opportunity to point someone to Christ?"

Brother, you'll find no argument there. When we consider who is most "qualified" (not sure I like that term, but I'll use it) to deal with the sinner, it is those who have been called as stewards of the mysteries of God. And there is no place more appropriate to bring the sinner in need of Christ than under the sound preaching of the Word of God. I *do* understand your point. Amen.

Hmmm...again, I'm not speaking of a guilt trip or a "burden," but a passion to share our faith with those who do not know my Savior. Yes, God has gifted and built us all differently. Some are shy, introverted and not very articulate. Some of us break out in splotches at the thought of telling someone what Christ has done for us. I get that. And I'm not saying that every Christian should "be like Gary" - agreed! But might I suggest that every Christian should desire to see sinners saved - that we should "want" to tells others of what Christ has done for us! And that the primary fruit of the filling of the Holy Spirit was not tongues or miracles, but boldness - because even the apostles needed spiritual boldness that was more than human determination.

What I hear often when talking to Reformed/Calvinistic folks about evangelism is negative feedback, posturing, qualifying and "explaining" that smakes of a lack of zeal for the lost. I am often left standing there in these conversations feeling like the "Calvinist who just hasn't arrived yet" because I will ask my waitress before we pray if there's anything we can pray for in her life - or later whether she knows the Lord Jesus.

Please take this in the spirit in which it is written. I am not speaking of anyone here. I do not know you or your personal walk with Christ. I'm speaking of those I know personally.

Brother, I appreciate you and your comments. Certainly no offense is taken.

__________________
Brian Dempsey, Pastor
Christ Reformed Church
www.christreformedchurch.org
Grace Online Library
www.graceonlinelibrary.org

"Knowledge without repentance will be but a torch to guide men to hell." - Thomas Watson

Why should we assume that personal evangelism has to be some weak "canned message?" Certainly there is much that goes on in the name of "evangelism training" that isn't much more than a canned response and trying to manipulate someone down the old "Roman's Road," but I don't think I'd throw out the baby with the bath water.

__________________
Brian Dempsey, Pastor
Christ Reformed Church
www.christreformedchurch.org
Grace Online Library
www.graceonlinelibrary.org

"Knowledge without repentance will be but a torch to guide men to hell." - Thomas Watson

There is only one person whom I might begin to say that I have 'led to Christ' (pardon the expression, previous discussions noted).

And that is my wife. We met by providence over the internet in the old days of msn chat, I witnessed via messenger and then via telephone, sent her tapes and tracts and a bible, and about a month later she was converted without ever setting foot in a church.

But can I say for sure that I 'led her to Christ'? No. God used me as an instrument, but what was it that broke through? When was the moment? Was it my words, or the words of the pastor preaching messages of grace that I sent her on cassette? Was it my writing to her, or was it the evangelistic writings of my pastor that I sent her?

We'll never know - all that we can know is that i) God delights to use human instruments and ii) God ALONE saves by absolute sovereign grace.

So was I used in her salvation? Certainly, and praise God. But did I lead her to Christ? No, He drew her. And I have never stopped praising His name for such a double blessing (a saved soul and a wife!).

I wish I could say that I know of any other case in the intervening six years where I have been so used. But I don't. However, what might God have done with the open air preaching I have done, with the child evangelism, with the door to door, with the pulpit ministry and the sermonaudio messages going (especially to florida, california and china) out at about 500 a month?

Do you know what? I don't really want to know. Soli Deo Gloria!

__________________
Jonathan Hunt

Preaching Elder
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

Brother, what a tremendous blessing! Praise God.

BTW, isn't SermonAudio a wonderful resource for expanding the reach of our ministries? I'm currently listening to your recent message, Prevailing with God. Here's a recent