I know the people involved in this. Very sad situation. The man in red is a city employee & Iknow him well. He has a chip on his shoulder about christianity.


*warning* some bad language

**video removed at Admin's discretion**

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

Sorry, Mr. Rogers. It had the Lord's Name taken in vain; although I understand your reason for posting, as an Admin I can't allow it to remain in good conscience; However, I think our PB brothers & sisters would appreciate a brief description of what happened.

P.S. You also have a PM, including something for which I wanted to thank you.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Curious minds do wish to know.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

OK

No worries, Josh.

The situation is a (somewhat annoying) street preacher (Dan Lirette) shows up at the Farmers Market on Saturday and begins to "preach". He is outside & not interfearing with commerce.

The manager (a city employee) comes out and in very *colourful* language tells him to leave. A debate ensues and the city employee bumps him with his gut/chest to shove him out of the way. He then notices the camera & turns on the camera man.

I am very involved with this market. My dad is the president of the board, and I am the (past) VP of the co-op. I negotiated the unification of what were formerly 2 rival markets into one much larger united market.

Also our Sunday night out reach( http://www.xanga.com/MonctonCommunityFellowship ) meets in this building.

This is a big local story today. I was not at the market this past weekend, but I recieved several calls about what happened. Today this is page one above the fold.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

The Market manager involved in the scuffle has resigned.

I am wondering the best way to deal with this. IMO the preacher was overly agressive & out of line. However, I have been in his position before (at pro-life events) & I pushed the limits of graciousness to asert my *rights*. So I can understand how a young guy with more zeal than wisdom acts.

Also the manager does have a thing about christianity. I have known him for years, and he can be gruff.

So how to deal with this? Reporters are calling, and this will be a big local debate for several days.

Anyone have any advice?

__________________
Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

Kevin;


Not having seen what happened, how was he overly aggressive? Did he push or shove to begin with? In what way was he out of line?


So his physical altercation against the preacher could be, considered, by some, a hate crime?

How are you in anyway responsible? This sounds like a personal one-on-one dispute between two grown men..

Was the manager attacking the preacher on the co-op's behalf? Was he speaking for the co-op in any manner? Or was he reacting on his own hatred towards Christianity?

If it was between two grown men, and the co-op did not in anyway support or encourage the managers actions, then the street preacher could very well file assault charges against him personally or not; he could forgive and ask that the man not step down, and show him Christ's forgiveness..which would speak volumes on his own walk...

The state could decide to press charges against the man who assaulted the preacher on their own, and if they investigate the way they should, they could very well decide it was a hate crime, which could add several years to any charges..

if you have to give a statement, just let the media circus know he acted of his own volition and not on behalf of the co-op...and it is your prayer and hope that this can be resolved peaceably..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Hate crimes don't apply when done to Christians. Only if you're a minority or homosexual.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

Zenas;

It covers religion, Christianity is included in that, even though there has never been a person charged with a hate crime against Christian's in this country doesn't mean there wouldn't be a first time..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

There shouldn't be such a creature as a 'hate crime.'

A crime is a crime. Murder is murder. Assault is assault. The intention matters not.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I know you were expressing sarcasm -and though the principle of your statement is true -, etc., but it may have been better to say 'a minority,' as opposed to singling out one group of "minorities."

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

This guy committed blasphemy and assault to enforce his apparently self-legislated will upon a christian preaching the gospel. If it were a muslim and he had insulted muhummed, there would literally be heads rolling. And a huge liberal uproar.

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Brad
PCA Member
Virginia

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You got that right.

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Randy Harris
Heritage Church (Independent)
Oklahoma City, OK

And these are things wherein we can joyously triumph in the the truth of our Savior's words:

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

John 16: 33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

1 Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not;but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And many many more,

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Why minority? I havn't heard of any hate crimes against Hispanics or Asians, only against gays and African-Americans.

While what I have read about beatings and abuse administered to homosexuals and African-Americans is despicable and worthy of extreme social sanction, it should be no more so than anyone else who committed a similar crime.

Mind you, I'm not attempting to equate a sin like homosexuality with a skin color associated with national origin, some morons out there do, ergo a crime committed against either is prosecuted and punished with equal fervor and tenacity. The illogicality of it all is mind-boggling and stems from, I believe, a shift in the legal community that began a century ago.

Judges like Oliver Holmes began rejecting the idea of an objective morality, determining that the State says what the law is because the State said so, and that's that. This logic has seemingly empowered court decisions determining that it's ok to think "wrongly" in America, but if you think "too wrongly", then the law will no longer offer you protection, i.e. in defamation laws and Judge Hand's "wrong/too wrong" dicotomy. I realize that hate crimes are statutory in nature, but I don't doubt that the same reasoning lies behind them, that you can think wrongly in the States' opinion, but if you think too wrongly then you're out of luck.

BJC,

While I realize religion is what is hypothetically protected by hate crime legislation, that is not how it translates in reality. In reality, all religions are tolerated and protected except Christianity. I wouldn't be too suprised if he manager was given some sort of medal by the ACLU.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

Well, I'd rather not cite the instances, since I hate the term hate crime anyway, but, according to the liberal apostate world's definition, such cases do exist.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Brad;

Yet, Christian's remain silent on such issues 'turning the other cheek'

__________________
Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Well, I guess I wasn't exactly silent about it, but turning the other cheek is a commendable thing.

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Brad
PCA Member
Virginia

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

No, the market is in no way responsible. The manager is however a city employee.

The preacher was curtly told to move to the sidewalk & he didn't. He began to argue that he had a right to be there (& he does).

My role in this is only that I am one of a couple people publicly identified with the market & I have often been interviewed & quoted on "market issues"many times over the years. (I also serve on some other boards so I am well known to local reporters as someone who can give a "good quote", so I am called by various media types to comment on local issues fairly often)

My concerns are; 1) the manager is antagonistic to the gospel & I have a burden for him. 2) we are using the market location for our outreach & have had a lot of unsaved/unchurched people coming. I do not want this controversy to negativly affect our efforts. 3) I am wondering how to reach out to the "preacher".

For many years the market has had a group of (mostly reformed) believers associated with it as vendors & board members. These individuals have acted as unofficial chaplans. The visit the sick in hospital & share the gospel with vendors & customers. This has been a very productive outreach. Our Sundaynight effort is attempting to build on this in a formal way. I worry that a brash young street preacher & a grumpy old agnostic could be used to undermine this ministry.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

Zenas;

I understand, and to my knowledge nobody has ever tried to prosecute such a case in regards to Christian 'hate crimes'.

but something we as Christian's, at least on some level, should or do recognize is that the hatred is not geared at 'us' personally but at God whose Spirit indwells us, even though yes, we get the brunt of it physically while we live in this world..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

I think it is geared toward us though. As they hate the Master, so they hate the servants.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

Greetings, Kevin!

I noted you had mentioned the Farmer's Market issue, and as the individual named in the media I would like to share some thoughts, if this would be appropriate for the Forum

Our camerman, Ryan, and the individual preaching the Gospel that morning, Myah, were at the market first handing out CD Tracts with people readily accepting them (See here:
Then, Myah began to Open Air Preach (see preaching WITHOUT confrontation with market manager here:
To give some detail...

Thi swas Myah's second outing.

Myah was radically Born Again 4 months ago and now attends and works full time as a staff member at our local assembly (Highfield Baptist Church).

Myah felt the Call of God to OA before she ever met me or knew that I OA'd in Moncton, as she was saved in Nova Scotia and has only recently moved back to Moncton.

When she wanted to OA, we were all for it; I believe females and males are called to preach the Gospel, and Myah's presentation for a New Believer was astounding! Amen!

The market preaching was her second time doing OA...

It was going well until the market manager came over to accost her verbally and ask her to stop; I interjected as this same man a year ago became verbally aggressive and demanded we leave.

At that time the City told us we could in fact be present to preach; however, the market manager was not, apparently, told this.

That said, it was uncalled for to throw me and pin my cameraman while seeking to take our camera.

Nonetheless, we are not suing nor pressing charges.

The video of the incident itself was posted by a Fredericton individual and not by me.

The media immediately grabbed onto it and ran with it, twisting words and creating a stir, to the detriment of both the market manager and I.

I will say, using discretion as all aspects are not yet worked out, that Mr. Beck (manager of the market) is not fired, and we have asked that he remain at the market. The City has agreed.

Mr. Beck and I will most likely release a joint statement this coming week as the media blitz is ridiculous.

I hold no ought against Mr. Beck and nor should I; Christ is Lord and can easily with a word save Mr. Beck and set him free.

As per the Open Air Preaching, Brother Kevin, I do understand that you and many others may not be in agreement with it, and I can respect such a view, however, due to it we've been able to minister in the homes of drug addicts, prostitues and cult members (Mormons) with one homosexual seeing the vids and stating, "I don't want to be an abomination anymore."

John the Baptist OA'd at the River Jordan and baptized those who were ordained to eternal life while rebuking sharply and openly those who refused the Lord Almighty stating, "You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come?!"

Scripture is clear that Paul "disputed daily".

Peter