"Wherever you go, preach the gospel; when necessary, use words."

What do you guys think of this, specifically that which is underlined.

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Andrew Barnes
Husband of Dena
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

'Ye are my epistles' comes to mind.

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

After two days, he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.
Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.

Logos comes to mind. It is necessary. Just like Revelation is necessary.

Faith cometh by hearing. Hearing comes by the Word of God.

I understand what Francis was saying. We should be living epistles. But I personally don't like the quote.

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(Norseman Moderator)

R. Martin Snyder
1689er
Harmony Baptist Church (Member)
PuritanCovenanter MSN Blog
PuritanCovenanter's MySpace Page

"Our object should not be to have scripture on our side but to be on the side of scripture; and however dear any sentiment may have become by being long entertained, so soon as it is seen to be contrary to the Bible, we must be prepared to abandon it without hesitation."
William Symington

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It would be a good guess that he was dealing with hypocrisy among the brethren. It is easier to talk about the goodness of God in the gospel than live it out to others. James epistle, one of the earliest, exhorts us to give to those in need rather than pray without sacrifice. For me it's a reminder to not blaspheme the name of God among the Gentiles by my actions among them.

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Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

This verse came to mind while reading that quote:
Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Don't know if that applies here but that's what I was thinking. Some times people see our actions before they hear our words.

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Tom Mitchell
Opp, AL
Member of First Presbyterian Church PCA Florala, AL

Open profaneness is the broad dirty way which leads to hell
--but trusting in religious duties is a sure way, though a cleaner way to hell. ~ Thomas Brooks
www.myspace.com/tom_mitchell1960
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=607055102

How about this;

Acts 1:1
1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

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Gil Garcia
Rehoboth Reformed Church (RCUS)
La Habra, CA


"Indeed, one might say that as far as the doctrine of justification
is concerned, if you are not on the road to Wittenberg or Geneva, then the old proverb is indeed true: all roads lead to Rome." Carl Trueman

I don't like the phrase "when necessary." Although our good works are important, they do not convey the content of the gospel. It makes me think of faith without works being dead. The two are inseparable. The words aren't something that can be just thrown in there. They give the actions meaning.

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

Absolutely, David. Francis I am sure spoke of Christ more during the day with his mouth than several of us on the board put together (me for sure.) His audience, or whoever he was thinking about when he wrote that, were those who would make a mockery of Christianity by not having the graciousness of God to them being lived out in their lives. To me that is simply hypocrisy a deadly trait and embarrassing to see (esp. if you a "saint" like Francis was/is still)

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Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

I think of latte drinking, goatee wearing, ministers who are afraid to say the Lord's "Yes" and "No," and who feel sheepish about "Thus saith the Lord."

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Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

I think Francis is badly wrong! The gospel is not the actions that we do. The gospel is a message that can only be spoken with words . This is always the case in the Bible. Just look at any occurence of the word "gospel".

It badly blurs the distinction between the root of the gospel and it's fruit. My works are the fruit. Anything else is works salvation.

Hence, Paul tells the Philippians not to live the gospel but to live lives worthy of the gospel (1:27). My works bear testimony to the gospel, but the gospel is fundamentally about Jesus' works.

We must get this right!

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Marty

"There is nothing so necessary to draw us to repentance as good thoughts of God." (Thomas Manton)

Magnanimous as it might sound for the Christian to live a constant godly life, it is impossible for the Christian to be "preaching" the gospel without the use of propositions. It never failed the apostles to write letters for specific instructions as to how one ought to live their faith and proliferate that faith by oration. So I stand in the use of words; therefore, it is always necessary to use words.

It's not theologically precise, but it's not meant to be; all Francis is saying is that we are to live out the gospel in our lives. After all, why would the world want to listen to our words, if our lives are a contradiction of the gospel.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

I think David is right about 'when necessary', I think the 'when necessary' is the sort of thing that makes a statement have a certain startling poetry, but doesn't really add to clarity. Clarity however doesn't seem to have been St Francis' strong point, while poetry does. Words are indeed necessary to give meaning to actions.

I appreciate Mr. Foord's point that the gospel is not our actions; but I took the intent of the statement to be more that our changed actions preach God's power and grace to change; that our love to sinners preaches God's unmerited love? -- that it is not our own actions we are preaching as the gospel, but God's grace that is not merely theoretical but effectual, and has made such things as selflessness and rectitude in people possible in spite of their own and the world's corruption?

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

After two days, he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.
Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.

To quote from a modern (liberal) theologian:

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

Would it then be possible to say that since God's Word creates the reality of our changed actions, by those actions (though not exclusive of language) we preach His Word?

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

After two days, he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.
Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.

In a theologically imprecise way, yes it would. Goldy living is the fruit of the Gospel, which points people to the Gospel.

When we read things such as the quote like Francis above, we should not expect the precision of a Systematic Theology. After all, what do we do with the verses in the Bible which say God has arms and eyes?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

My line of thinking is this: all of nature testifies to God, and as Christians we testify to the grace of God working in us by our conduct, and by our words (or sometimes by our silence). But I would not describe our actions as "preaching." The heavens declare the glory of God, but it is not preaching. We who are vessels of God's grace and mercy, bear the imprint of our gracious Heavenly Father's face, and show forth his praise and glory with or without words. Preaching is a distinct means of grace ordained by God without which ordinarily there is no possibility of salvation. It involves the proclamation of the "good news," the gospel, ie., the Word. The witness of Christians by good behavior ought to draw men to hear that Word preached. But I would distinguish those two things (witness and preaching) because one is general (creation, the good conduct of believers) and one is specific (the proclamation of the gospel by those sent by God and likewise ordained as his heralds). Therefore, they are not interchangeable, and in fact, preaching has priority. One may give a cup of cold water to another in need and so bear witness to Christ, or one may give a cup of cold water for altruistic but unbelieving reasons which is sin. But by the Word, even by the preaching of the Word, we may understand what is good and right, because it is God's own Word, his self-revelation, who is goodness, and righteousness, and holiness. His Word puts our actions in proper context. It even goes deeper than actions which we can only superficially observe; it exposes hypocrisy, because it is a two-edged sword. So I would revise what Francis said to say, "Wherever you go, testify to the gospel; your life must be joined to your words, words being necessary to the preaching of the gospel, and your good deeds must accompany them as heat and light accompany fire (Martin Luther). I hope this helps. I know it's a "precisionist" response to St. Francis, but c'est moi.

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

I remember hearing from somone (Can't recall who) that he never really said that? Dont know if anyone could shed some light on that?

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Shane
Sydenham Baptist
Port Elizabeth, South Africa

"The most damnable and pernicious heresy that has ever plagued the mind of man was the idea that somehow he could make himself good enough to deserve to live with an all Holy God" - Martin Luther

Shane, here is some information from the 'Ask a Franciscan' website:

Q: I keep seeing St. Francis of Assisi credited as saying, “Preach the gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.” I have looked in several places but cannot find where St. Francis said this.

A: This is a great quote, very Franciscan in its spirit, but not literally from St. Francis. The thought is his; this catchy phrasing is not in his writings or in the earliest biographies about him.
In Chapter XVII of his Rule of 1221, Francis told the friars not to preach unless they had received the proper permission to do so. Then he added, “Let all the brothers, however, preach by their deeds.”
I had been a Franciscan for 28 years—and had earned an M.A. in Franciscan studies—before I heard the “Use words if necessary” quote. That was during Msgr. Kenneth Velo’s homily at Cardinal Joseph L. Bernardin’s funeral in 1996.
About a year ago, a friend of mine used the Internet to contact some of the most eminent Franciscan scholars in the world, seeking the source of this “Use words if necessary” quote. It is clearly not in any of Francis’ writings. After a couple weeks of searching, no scholar could find this quote in a story written within 200 years of Francis’ death.
This saying and the “Peace Prayer,” which Francis certainly did not write, are easily identified with him because they so thoroughly reflect his spirit. Unfortunately, they would not have become as widespread if they had been attributed to “John Smith” or “Mary Jones.”
Exhaustive research on the origins of the “Peace Prayer of St. Francis” has led to Christian Renoux’s new book in French. This 210-page study (ISBN 2-85020-096-4) is described at www.electre.com under Les Editions Franciscaines.
An 11th-century French prayer is similar to the first part of the “Peace Prayer.” The oldest known copy of the current prayer, however, dates to 1912 in France. The prayer became more well known in other countries during World War I.
This prayer is sold all over Assisi today—but always under the title “A Simple Prayer.” Whoever linked it to St. Francis guaranteed a wide diffusion of the text. The same is true for the “Use words if necessary” quote. Both reflect St. Francis very well.

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

After two days, he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.
Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.

Incidentally Ruben suggests we write a book, What St Francis Really Said. It could be the manifesto of a 'New Perspectives on St Francis' movement.

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

After two days, he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.
Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.

__________________

(Norseman Moderator)

R. Martin Snyder
1689er
Harmony Baptist Church (Member)
PuritanCovenanter MSN Blog
PuritanCovenanter's MySpace Page

"Our object should not be to have scripture on our side but to be on the side of scripture; and however dear any sentiment may have become by being long entertained, so soon as it is seen to be contrary to the Bible, we must be prepared to abandon it without hesitation."
William Symington

Click to get:Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?